Not another unfolded carbon vs damascus thread....

[Helmetrock]

Hello!

My name is Rickard, I live in Uppsala, Sweden and I'm about to buy my first katana.

I am thinking of two models, one cheap and one rather expensive, both available in damascus or plain carbon steel, 10 series.
The cheap has the same price for both blades, around 240$, the steel blade is differentially tempered 1060 steel and the damascus blade is unspecified...
Am I right if I expect a lot less from the damascus blade since there is not higher price than the standard blade?

It has the colours I prefer as original, and real ray skin handle and so.
Sadly I don't know the brand, but the dealer is well known and sells Paul Chen swords and other brands!
Paul Chen surely makes good cutting swords but not the look or quality feeling I want, more tool than artwork in affordable prices...

The expensive one is custom made when it comes to colours and fittings, and comes with either a 1055 or 1060 steel blade, that option is about 280-300$ with my preferred parts, and a damascus blade that is made from folded 1055 and 1060 steel, with center of iron, and that option is about 650$.

What can be expected from this blade? Now of course talking about if it's made in a good way and not to look good, but I believe they wouldn't bother three different qualities if they where only after looks?

Compared to the 350$ cheaper blade, and other compareable swords...

I don't think any of the blades are really clay tempered, but I'm not really sure... I will ask the dealer next time.

I don't expect any of the blades to be anything traditional, but I prefer damascus because of the look...

It is mostly going to be hanging on my wall, but it has to perform if I want it to, and the money is not missing....

So I wonder what I can expect from the different blades and what I should think about and look for! Now talking average from price and steel quality and so.

As you surely understand, the 650$ version is the one I want the most, but it's also over double the price...

Any comments and tips are appreciated!

Rickard

[bobO]

Hello!

My name is Rickard, I live in Uppsala, Sweden and I'm about to buy my first katana.

I am thinking of two models, one cheap and one rather expensive, both available in damascus or plain carbon steel, 10 series.
The cheap has the same price for both blades, around 240$, the steel blade is differentially tempered 1060 steel and the damascus blade is unspecified...
Am I right if I expect a lot less from the damascus blade since there is not higher price than the standard blade?

It has the colours I prefer as original, and real ray skin handle and so.
Sadly I don't know the brand, but the dealer is well known and sells Paul Chen swords and other brands!
Paul Chen surely makes good cutting swords but not the look or quality feeling I want, more tool than artwork in affordable prices...

The expensive one is custom made when it comes to colours and fittings, and comes with either a 1055 or 1060 steel blade, that option is about 280-300$ with my preferred parts, and a damascus blade that is made from folded 1055 and 1060 steel, with center of iron, and that option is about 650$.

What can be expected from this blade? Now of course talking about if it's made in a good way and not to look good, but I believe they wouldn't bother three different qualities if they where only after looks?

Compared to the 350$ cheaper blade, and other compareable swords...

I don't think any of the blades are really clay tempered, but I'm not really sure... I will ask the dealer next time.

I don't expect any of the blades to be anything traditional, but I prefer damascus because of the look...

It is mostly going to be hanging on my wall, but it has to perform if I want it to, and the money is not missing....

So I wonder what I can expect from the different blades and what I should think about and look for! Now talking average from price and steel quality and so.

As you surely understand, the 650$ version is the one I want the most, but it's also over double the price...

Any comments and tips are appreciated!

Rickard
Welcome to the forum. first it's hard to be specific without knowing sword models etc. I for one I;m not a big fan of Damascus katana. having said that, let me say, you not being a practitioner of JSA, buy what you like. The Damascus blade will surly get more oohs and ah's from your friends. Hope that helps.

[Kurubushi Kamu]

Hi there HRock and welcome to the forum. If you're buying just for looks and a wall hanger I agree with bobO.. go with what you want. Just be aware if you cut with a folded blade ( probably pattern welded) it may bend on a bad cut. I think the cheaper through hardened blade would withstand more use. Also at these price points the furniture may not hold up to abuse if you cut alot. Only my 2 cents worth.. its going to be yours anyway so buy what makes you happy! Good Luck KK

[Mako]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/jonathanwong/thumb_thisthreadisworthlesswithoutp.gif


Welcome Rickard.

Without knowing which particular swords you have in mind,it's gonna be hard to offer impartial opinions from members and I don't think Jason would object to links because he doesn't ship to Europe. ;)

[Helmetrock]

Thanks for the welcoming and the answers!

It was actually on purpose I didn't make links or pics, I have no good pics, and the websites are, as you might understand, in swedish, so I didn't think it would help much:)

But Ok! Here they are:

$650 damascus on the top, and some other further down
http://www.freewebs.com/dragonhf/japanskasvrd.htm
Click on the pictures to get to a gallery of every sword.

And the cheap one, Crane katana on the top
http://www.gavelins.com/sword/orient01-1.html

Actually, I think you could understand a fair bit of at least the first site, much are the same words, and some are english, some are japanese.

@BobO:
You're right, Ooohs and Aaahs are maybe part of it=))
Are you a practitioner?
Why don't you like damascus?
I like the look of it, but I know very well it doesn't give better performance...

@Kurubushi Kamu:
This sword isn't going to see any abuse, especially not the expensive one, but it should be capabable to cut and maybe I will cut some bamboo carpets or so, but no mistreating here! I've got a chainsaw for those purposes:mace:
And what did you mean with the prices? I didn't really understand that part.
And what is pattern welded?
The blade on the expensive one is made from three different steel types, and really folded.

@Mako:
Got your links:)

[Kurubushi Kamu]

Hi HRock..to answer quickly most fittings on the more inexpensive swords (and some expensive ones) are cast alloy and may not stand up to much cutting. I tend to collect and not cut with my blades though so others will have a more informed opinion than me. Pattern welded blades are 2 types of steel welded together in a billet and etched after forging and shaping to mimic 'real' Damascus steel. It looks nice though may or may not have a hamon.. only an etch or polish will tell for sure. Go with what you like as you state it will not be subjected to alot of cutting anyway. Hope this helps.. KK

[Helmetrock]

Ok Thanks Kurubushi!

I just got reply from the dealer with the expensive katana, it is really a folded steel blade, it is not clay tempered, but it's still differentially tempered. (The clay tempered blade was another 1000$...)
Will it have a true hamon line? It doesn't look like that on the pictures, but it's hard to see. It looks a little whiter at the edge anyway.

And if I have understood right, is the hamon the line where the clay ends and the steel is free when you temper the blade?
I know about the different steel structures and so, I just wonder how it's done and how it gets the wave shape?

[Mako]

If you like the 'Damascus' look... go with it but personally I'd give it a miss.
There are many of these pattern welded blades available...most don't have a true hamon and this one certainly doesn't...

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/3369/eagle2021do0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

As Jason doesn't ship to Europe,I'd look to some retailers within the EU as you won't have to pay any taxes and the shipping is cheaper. ;)

[Kurubushi Kamu]

Hamon styles are numerous and the wave style is often the most copied. Real Hamon are not exposed steel but the clay coating IS thinner nearer the edge during heat treatment. I'm terrible at providing links but the more tech savvy here should provide you with links to YouTube vids showing what I mean..Try looking in the other threads in the forum too. Theres lots of info in some older threads and posts.. KK

[Torawashi]

Hi Rickard and a great big Swords of Might welcome to the forum. today with better metallurgy and better steel quality the "Damascus" blade is not really needed, nor is it superior. It's fine if you want one to say you have one or for a fancy show blade but the plain metal blades are the better cutters. Hamon lines and differential heat treating are also mainly a cosmetic effect nowadays too. they are good blades but again not really needed with modern metal technology. Cold Steel makes just about the toughest katana blades I know of and they are through hardened and no hamon of any kind. so it all boils down to what your intended use of the blade is. If you want a cutter I would stay away from the "Damascus", If you want primarily a show blade then "Damascus" is just fine. Hope this helps.

[Helmetrock]

@Mako:
Is the picture in your post a pattern welded?
I know it doesn't have any traditional look, but it's supposed to be folded, and yes, i really like the look of it, at least more than any of the unfolded!
But said again, I know it isn't the traditiolnal look....


But if the blade is pattern welded, and you know for sure (how?) I wont't go with that at all...

But to quote the webshop, translated:
First the AISI 1055 is folded a number of times, then it is folded with the 1060 and finally folded with the iron.

And who is this famous Jason? :)

[Mako]

@Mako:
Is the picture in your post a pattern welded?
I know it doesn't have any traditional look, but it's supposed to be folded, and yes, i really like the look of it, at least more than any of the unfolded!
But said again, I know it isn't the traditiolnal look....


But if the blade is pattern welded, and you know for sure (how?) I wont't go with that at all...

But to quote the webshop, translated:
First the AISI 1055 is folded a number of times, then it is folded with the 1060 and finally folded with the iron.

And who is this famous Jason? :)
The answer is there for you to see in the description...
First the AISI 1055 is folded a number of times, then it is folded with the 1060 and finally folded with the iron.
That is a type of pattern welding...the different types of steel and the iron are folded together and then acid etched to expose the folds. ;)

[Helmetrock]

Ok, thanks for the help guys!

But sadly the expensive one is revealed as a Ryan Swords $125 Ebay katana....:flaming:
Yeah that's right, Wus store was 5,2 times more expensive....:machinegun:

However, I think I will go with a Paul Chen Golden Oriole or something similar....
Couldn't possibly go too wrong :)

[bobO]

Now your talking! Like your avatar.

[Helmetrock]

I seriously consider putting an $125 Ebay link at the sellers guestbook...:evilbat:

Anyone who has any experience from the Golden Oriole or seen a test of it?



@Mako
I misunderstood you, I believed pattern welded was when the pattern was made on the surface of an unfolded monosteel blade...
Now I won't go with it anyway but it's fun to know anyway, so what is the differance between pattern welded and damascus? And real traditional folded blades?

@Bob0
Thanks! It's cruel:mace:

[Mako]

@Mako
I misunderstood you, I believed pattern welded was when the pattern was made on the surface of an unfolded monosteel blade...
Now I won't go with it anyway but it's fun to know anyway, so what is the differance between pattern welded and damascus? And real traditional folded blades?
I'm afraid that the subject is far too complex for me to explain and I'm not qualified to do so anyway.
These links to Wikipedia will give a basic outline in the differences.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattern_welding

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damascus_steel

Please remember that I stated...
That is a type of pattern welding
...and I believe that particular type is one of the most basic,not to be confused with many blades which have distinctive patterns and are considered as works of art by many collectors.

[Torawashi]

Ok, thanks for the help guys!

But sadly the expensive one is revealed as a Ryan Swords $125 Ebay katana....:flaming:
Yeah that's right, Wus store was 5,2 times more expensive....:machinegun:

However, I think I will go with a Paul Chen Golden Oriole or something similar....
Couldn't possibly go too wrong :)

Why not order the new SOM katana from Jason. It's a beauty and not too many places have them, in fact I've heard that if you can find a new SOM katana cheaper on a different webstore, Jason will give you one for free!=)) Limited time offer; sorry
time's up. ;)

[Helmetrock]

Why not order the new SOM katana from Jason. It's a beauty and not too many places have them, in fact I've heard that if you can find a new SOM katana cheaper on a different webstore, Jason will give you one for free!=)) Limited time offer; sorry
time's up. ;)
Haha :)

Too bad he doesn't ship to Europe....

@Mako
Thanks! Will read that!