Forged, folded, options around the $500 range?

[willrichtor]

To be honest, I'm a little overwhelmed with the selection that is available on the market today. I have already ordered a Ryumon folded tanto and a Musashi bamboo katana to test the waters and get a look at the work of these two outfits. For what I paid, there is probably $150 worth of materials if nothing else. I have a stainless sword shaped object in shirasaya that I paid as much for years ago before I knew better. For $150 it won't be hard to impress me. The bamboo will probably become a christmas present for one of my friends at the end of the year, but who knows, I may fall in love.

This is what I want, ideally: 27-28", moderate sori, blade that is functional but undeniably eyecandy, natural wood saya(will strip/relaquer if need be) no hi if possible(very low on the priorities list) with koshirae similar to what is found on the Handmade Damascus Cherry Blossom sword listed here, and probably a handle/sageo rewrap to better suit a natural wood saya as I think black doesn't cut it in that situation. I don't wear black socks and tie with a brown suit.

I have found that same tsuba through a post here which led to an ebay store run out of china, full of the most wonderful Tsuba designs, some of which match PERFECTLY sketches I made on notecards when I was in highschool over a decade ago, so the koshirae is pretty much found. What I'm stuck on is the sword itself. I want a good balance of form and function. I love hada, the wilder the better, but I am not limiting my criteria to folded blades. It must have either gorgeous hada or a really striking hamon... and major bonus points to swords that display both. No need to rehash the pattern welded Vs monosteel argument with me, Al Massey put it very succintly for me years ago - it's the same thing, just a smith's arm can't fold/weld nearly as well as an industrial hammer with thousands of tons of force behind it.

So here's what I've got my eye on:
Ryumon Shogun Katana - the rosewood saya is definitely a plus, and it has hada with the potential to show hamon

Handmade Damascus ________ all the models under this moniker seem very beautiful, but there seems to be very little information about them or the quality of items produced from that forge. The Cherry Blossom sword would seem to fit several of my requisites.

Musashi Tenga - the hamon always seems to LEAP off of a san mai blade

Musashi Dynasty - best sword around for $200? Think i heard someone say that ;)

Musashi Tora Washi - I don't see it listed here anymore, but it was here the other day, and it seemed like it had hada, hamon, AND was a san mai blade. The hamon was incredible in the pics I've seen, looked like the serration pattern on my favourite steak knives - UUVUUVUUV

Ryumon Imperial - forged, folded, hamon, no hi... little on the long side though

Ryumon Senshi Tengoku - horimono! mahogany saya, hamon, only partial hi... little on the long side too but seems like it would be a good cutter

Ryumon Zodiak - natural saya, forged folded

Ryumon Folded Dragon - meets many criteria, but the tsuba is so nice I dunno if I'd want to mess with the combination, lol

Bushido Raijin - hada, aubergine ito would be LOVELY against natural wood finish, see "The Hunted" with Christopher Lambert for evidence :>

Bushido Tenma - not much info or pictures, but it's forged folded and says it has hamon

Those are the ones I have been eyeing. That's a lie. I've been eyeing them ALL. Every last damn one listed for sale. If anyone has any thoughts on these blades, how they stack against each other in terms of performance(objective) and aesthetics(naturally subjective) I'd love to hear, along with any suggestions anyone may have to point me in a good direction. I am not dead set on ANY of my criteria. including price range, they are just what I have in my mind at the moment.

[jjreeves]

i can't speak for the other blades, but i can speak for the raijin, i wouldn't buy it with heavy use in mind, the nakago is a little skimpy for a tsuka that it to tight, and it puts some excessive strain on it, it is a gorgeous blade, and whether it's razor sharp or not seems luck of the draw, it can cut light things quite nicely, and if you don't mind a little sharpening work it holds an edege very nicely, but you may have to redo the tsuka at some point, mine is on the way there, think im gonna try to redo it with the same color ito but a battle wrap instead. hope you enjoy anything you buy. and you definately picked the right site to go to, good luck

[Caliper]

hmm...I think the Ryumon imperial could be the best bet, althought, I believe the ji-hada is hardly visible

I recommend if you want a properly folded blade you should stay away from anything around the <200 range, at that price you know some corners were cut and could be potential flaws in the blade folding altering it's resistance

let me see if I got this right, you want a good cutting blade that looks good, as for the koshirae you will customize everything?

[willrichtor]

Probably going custom with the koshirae, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't get something in my hands and fall in love with it the way it is. At the very least an attractive tsuba would be displayed somewhere in the house when it's retired from the sword.

[willrichtor]

This brings to mind a question: In these "damascus" swords, are these forges using ready made pattern welded billets from their stel source, or are they doing the pattern welding personally? I mean I don't expect that they've got a hidden stash of Daryl Maier pattern welded steel piled somewhere, but if they're using premade billets instead of forge folding themselves, then the quality should be on par with the quality of the monosteel from the same source. Then again, that wouldn't always be saying much. Take the Indian steel and damascus creations that windlass used to pump out. Blech.

Like when Chen started using the Krupps steel powder - well unless I got my info wrong, it came out of the crucible in a damascus pattern, right? No folding necessary, just forge out the shape?

[Caliper]

That's a very good question, I'm afraid I can't answer, could be, perhaps all this more economic folded swords are made that way and why it carries an acceptable cost and have a similar 'damascus' appearance

maybe someone more knowledgeable may be able to answer your question

[Mako]

In reply to your first post Will...

As with all authentic Japanese and modern Japanese style swords, the blade is everything, koshirae is secondary and as a complete remount doesn't appear to be of any real consequence to you, I'd recommend you buy the best blade you can find in shirasaya within your budget, you'll have the habaki, bare saya and tsuka which can be finished as you want.

I can't comment on the katana you've mentioned above as I've never owned or handled any one of them and anything that I post here would only be other people's opinions that are often stated as fact based on what they've read elsewhere...a practice which I don't subscribe to because one faulty blade can brand the whole range as crap when it's not deserved.

It's 01:02 here right now and I'm gonna hit the sack, maybe somebody in the USA or wherever will answer your other query before I log in again. ;)

[the blade master]

and theres me thinking i was the only night owl around these parts j

[Mako]

and theres me thinking i was the only night owl around these parts j
Only on the weekend Mick. ;)

This brings to mind a question: In these "damascus" swords, are these forges using ready made pattern welded billets from their stel source, or are they doing the pattern welding personally? I mean I don't expect that they've got a hidden stash of Daryl Maier pattern welded steel piled somewhere, but if they're using premade billets instead of forge folding themselves, then the quality should be on par with the quality of the monosteel from the same source. Then again, that wouldn't always be saying much. Take the Indian steel and damascus creations that windlass used to pump out. Blech.

I believe that what you say is correct regarding 'Damascus' blades but there's a whole world of difference in the varying quality of these billets, some have been branded as poor to say the least while others are excellent, this will be reflected in the price of the billet but not always in the retail price of the sword or knife...Jason will always give a straight answer to any questions about the quality of the steel in the swords he sells, here on the forum or over the phone, many other retailers are not so forthcoming.

Like when Chen started using the Krupps steel powder - well unless I got my info wrong, it came out of the crucible in a damascus pattern, right? No folding necessary, just forge out the shape?
This question has had me pondering for many years and it's my understanding that 'Swedish powdered steel' as used by Hanwei in making swords also comes in billets with between 40 and 80 layers, so I suppose that it is highly probable for a smith to forge a sword blade from it which exhibits hada without any folding at all but if you look at the hada in a Hanwei folded blade you'll see that the layers are not uniform as you'd expect to see in a billet straight from the mill which would be symmetrical, then there are the swirls in the hada which resemble the knots in timber, I've read that this is achieved by punching small holes in the steel during the folding process and won't be found in a billet of 'Swedish powdered steel' which I'm led to believe is similar to 'Krupps' steel.
In summary, my guess is that what you've written is true to some extent except that the steel is folded at the forge but not as many times as it would appear.
Disclaimer:
All the above is based on what I've read and any correction is more than welcome from anyone...especially one of our resident blade smiths as there seems to be very little information available which is easily understood by the metallurgical challenged, like myself. :)

[Torawashi]

To be honest, I'm a little overwhelmed with the selection that is available on the market today. I have already ordered a Ryumon folded tanto and a Musashi bamboo katana to test the waters and get a look at the work of these two outfits. For what I paid, there is probably $150 worth of materials if nothing else. I have a stainless sword shaped object in shirasaya that I paid as much for years ago before I knew better. For $150 it won't be hard to impress me. The bamboo will probably become a christmas present for one of my friends at the end of the year, but who knows, I may fall in love.

This is what I want, ideally: 27-28", moderate sori, blade that is functional but undeniably eyecandy, natural wood saya(will strip/relaquer if need be) no hi if possible(very low on the priorities list) with koshirae similar to what is found on the Handmade Damascus Cherry Blossom sword listed here, and probably a handle/sageo rewrap to better suit a natural wood saya as I think black doesn't cut it in that situation. I don't wear black socks and tie with a brown suit.

I have found that same tsuba through a post here which led to an ebay store run out of china, full of the most wonderful Tsuba designs, some of which match PERFECTLY sketches I made on notecards when I was in highschool over a decade ago, so the koshirae is pretty much found. What I'm stuck on is the sword itself. I want a good balance of form and function. I love hada, the wilder the better, but I am not limiting my criteria to folded blades. It must have either gorgeous hada or a really striking hamon... and major bonus points to swords that display both. No need to rehash the pattern welded Vs monosteel argument with me, Al Massey put it very succintly for me years ago - it's the same thing, just a smith's arm can't fold/weld nearly as well as an industrial hammer with thousands of tons of force behind it.

So here's what I've got my eye on:
Ryumon Shogun Katana - the rosewood saya is definitely a plus, and it has hada with the potential to show hamon

Handmade Damascus ________ all the models under this moniker seem very beautiful, but there seems to be very little information about them or the quality of items produced from that forge. The Cherry Blossom sword would seem to fit several of my requisites.

Musashi Tenga - the hamon always seems to LEAP off of a san mai blade

Musashi Dynasty - best sword around for $200? Think i heard someone say that ;)

Musashi Tora Washi - I don't see it listed here anymore, but it was here the other day, and it seemed like it had hada, hamon, AND was a san mai blade. The hamon was incredible in the pics I've seen, looked like the serration pattern on my favourite steak knives - UUVUUVUUV

Ryumon Imperial - forged, folded, hamon, no hi... little on the long side though

Ryumon Senshi Tengoku - horimono! mahogany saya, hamon, only partial hi... little on the long side too but seems like it would be a good cutter

Ryumon Zodiak - natural saya, forged folded

Ryumon Folded Dragon - meets many criteria, but the tsuba is so nice I dunno if I'd want to mess with the combination, lol

Bushido Raijin - hada, aubergine ito would be LOVELY against natural wood finish, see "The Hunted" with Christopher Lambert for evidence :>

Bushido Tenma - not much info or pictures, but it's forged folded and says it has hamon

Those are the ones I have been eyeing. That's a lie. I've been eyeing them ALL. Every last damn one listed for sale. If anyone has any thoughts on these blades, how they stack against each other in terms of performance(objective) and aesthetics(naturally subjective) I'd love to hear, along with any suggestions anyone may have to point me in a good direction. I am not dead set on ANY of my criteria. including price range, they are just what I have in my mind at the moment.

Will; I can help with a couple of the swords you mentioned. I have the Musashi Tora Washi sword.....It has a spectacular hamon, really remarkable, but no visible hada. just looking at the blade says high quality though. I have never cut with it as I don't want to take a chance on marring the blade, but there's no doubt in my mind it would be an ichi ban cutter. In fact I like it so much, I took my forum alias from its name..... Tiger Eagle.

I also have the Ryumon Shogun katana and it's also a great sword. the hada is quite visible but no visible hamon.....that's fine with me but don't know how others may feel about it. the tsuba would need to be changed out (as I did) as it is a little rough but that's the only criticism I can give this sword. the Brazilian rosewood saya is beautiful, has a really nice grain pattern. Again I don't cut with this sword but I have no doubt it's a great cutter.

I bought both these swords from Swords of Might and they came to me in great condition and VERY sharp. I can recommend both of them highly and you can't go wrong with SOM, Jason will always stand behind his products. Hope this helps in your quest. By the way; the Hunted is one of my favorite Oriental sword movies.

[Caliper]

Agree, you can contact Jason and he will help you with all your inquiries, I know cause I've bothered him a lot =))

[willrichtor]

Jim, you and I would seem to have very similar taste in swords, both eastern and western. Thank you for the input.

Caliper... I know Jason is THE man around these parts to go to with questions, but I'm honestly not expecting him to jump in this thread and do a cross examination of that giant list of swords I put forth. But I will contact him when I narrow the spectrum down a bit. What's the most convenient method of getting his attention, shoot him a private message?

I like to read back into forums a bit when I join one, to get a feel for the place, and I gotta say, you guys are a riot. Seriously. Like a barrel of monkeys. With rabies... and scabies...

[Torawashi]

Jim, you and I would seem to have very similar taste in swords, both eastern and western. Thank you for the input.

Caliper... I know Jason is THE man around these parts to go to with questions, but I'm honestly not expecting him to jump in this thread and do a cross examination of that giant list of swords I put forth. But I will contact him when I narrow the spectrum down a bit. What's the most convenient method of getting his attention, shoot him a private message?

I like to read back into forums a bit when I join one, to get a feel for the place, and I gotta say, you guys are a riot. Seriously. Like a barrel of monkeys. With rabies... and scabies...

Will; you're quite welcome my friend. Jason always responds to private messages and you can call him during store hours and discuss your wants and needs. Jason is very pleasant to talk with and is always very friendly and helpful. Also, you might want to take a look at the Ryumon "Dragon" katana. I bought this one for the sword and koshirae, not the saya, but the saya is a bonus because the design of the ocean and dragon is first carved and then hand painted on the saya....very good quality. the blade is excellent quality, can be used as a cutter if desired, and the koshirae is outstanding. the tsuba, fuchi and kashira are antiqued to look like tarnished with verdigris, very well done....the design on the tsuba is of a dragon winding around the tsuba. the kashira is a rather unique design, a carved out dragon forms the top of the pommel in a roundish form that is beautiful to see. the ito and sageo are of quality brown material, not the usual nappy cotton. the light weight and balance of this sword makes it a pleasure to wield. this is not some flashy kiddy piece, although it may look like it in the images. This is actually an outstanding katana....has to be held in the hand to be really appreciated. I highly recommend this sword. :ohyeah:

[willrichtor]

Oh believe me I've looked at it, and the Bamboo, AND the Phoenix, etc, etc... I'm very tempted by them, but I really have a bit of a finished look in mind that I would like to shoot for first. Remember that masterpiece that Lambert helped the old drunk forge in the Hunted? I'm thinking of something like that, with either ivory or aubergine ito against the natural woodgrain of the saya.

Then again I may just end up with one of those painted models. I think with the work that went into them, the sayas alone are worth the entire price of the sword.

You're supposed to be making this easier. ~X(

[Jason Moore]

If you would like, give me a call during business hours and I will be happy to chat with you. I won't bite, I promise...