Tales of Musahi

[bobO]

Heres the story,Musashi was in his wandering days looking for people to duel.He came to a village where he new a retired swordsmen of very high caliber lived.He went to the mans house to challenge him,but seeing him working in his garden didn't want to bother him.So he found a young boy to take his challenge to the old man.In response the old man sent the boy back with a flower he had cut with his sword .Musashi studied the cut flower and decided not to fight this swordsmen.So guys whats your take on this?:-?

[Jason Moore]

Tales of MUSAHI! My take is you need to take a typing class! :-SS#-o

[bobO]

Man it took me half an hour to type that,felt like I was writing a book.But that is the whole story.Just the readers digest version.

[jwilliams]

My take on this is that when he saw the quality of the cut he decided that this old swordsman had skill or "no mind". Also on seeing that he had sacrificed one of his flowers to send the message there was no doubt that this swordsman had learned not to value the things of this life and therefore was not afraid of the outcome of any battle. That's my readers digest answer. It goes much deeper if you think about it.

[Mako]

Could it be that Musashi realized that there was no glory in challenging and killing an old man who had retired to his garden and he may have dishonored himself if he had done so.

[bobO]

Thank you Mr.Williams,that's what I'm talking about.This is one of those stories I've thought about since I first heard about it over 30 years ago.I also think there's more to symbolism of the flower.Why a flower and not a piece of bamboo and on and on.And guys the last time I tried to type, you didn't turn it on,you changed the ribbon.Yes Mako I often wondered if It was the poorness of the cut and not the quality? Mushin(no-mind) Munen(no-thought)

[jwilliams]

A very good thought Mako, also I think it might be helpful to know where he was in his life, how many duels he had had already.

[goose710]

my take on this story is this: the flower repesents the young Musashi: and by cutting the flower and destroying it in it's beauty, so Musashi would be destroyed in his "flowering" state and his beauty or full potential would never be relized the old man didn't wish to take any more beauty from this world.
goose710

[Ben]

When I read this from the book Musashi it was my understanding that the quality of the cut is what tipped Musashi off to his skill. You all bring up interesting, additional angles I didn't think of. Deep one goose.=D>

[Dotanuki]

Or maybe, by giving Musashi that flower, it would dislocate Musashi's mental state [what DOES this flower mean??] and he wouldn't be able concentrate on the fight. Or try not to kill him to find out what that flower means?
After hanging around with Takuan [famous priest] Musashi probably thought "S#%t! another zen riddle, I'm heading down the road!";)

[Ben]

I kind of like zen riddles, you know those kind that keep you thinking all month long. Those are pretty cool. Maybe it's just me.

[joelybob]

Ahhhh, he was just afraid of gettin his butt whupped by a florist, ha ha ha ha!!!!!!!!!!!!:sadorc:

[bobO]

=))Your killing me!! Another story;A Samurai goes to a monk for instruction, upon meeting the monk he demands to know the nature of heaven and hell.The monk nonplussed, replies,why would I teach a lout like you.This infuriates the samurai who starts to draw his sword.The monk says,Here open the gates to hell.Hearing this shocks the samurai,who then re-seats his sword.The monk says,here open the gates to heaven,lesson over.

[jwilliams]

To kill someone even if justified can be hell, to kill a man in anger or because of wounded pride is to enter hell, thus drawing a sword in anger is the gate, to control yourself and put your sword away is the gate to heaven because it is the beginning of self-mastery which leads to heaven. The monk had no way of knowing the samurai would draw his sword but by the samurai's reaction he would know if the samurai had self-mastery or not which can also be heaven or hell.

[bobO]

You brought out a good point J,The mastering of the self.I think this was one of the things the monk was try teach.

[Dotanuki]

Ben,
When I was younger I too loved Koans [zen riddles]
you know like;

If a tree falls in the forest and there is no one around to hear, does it make a sound?

What is the sound of one hand clapping?

If Jack helped you on the horse, would you help Jack off the horse?
[Just joking on this last one]

When I was younger, I used to practice meditation to reach a state of Mushin [no mind].
Now that I am older, I find myself constantly in a state of Mushin, I don't know if it is from my training or senility.

Here is a couple of Zen [or cosmic] riddles for you.

If you forget the Question, does the Answer matter?

Is there a Death of Dignity? or just Death?

If you find the answers out, DON'T tell me!! I like to figure them out for myself.
Remember;
"Reality or Illusion, the experience is the same."

[bobO]

What was the face that was yours before you were born.If you meet Budda kill him.Just a couple that came to mind.Use to think about koans till my eyes crossed.

[rick]

I have the book of five rings and the art of war.what other books should i look for?
I like to ponder a riddle while Imedatate.:-?

[bobO]

I have always been a fan of D.T.Suzuki,also there was a poet of old japan called Basho,his haiku can be enjoyed on many levels.Although I've been told a lot of the finer nuances are lost in translation.And if you ever get a chance to listen to physicists talk quantum mechanic's they start talking in zen terms.

[rick]

I llike to work out my brain.Like now I'm reading the comple works of Edgar Allen Poe. I have a library card and a sleep disorder,bad combo.

[Nanshoji]

Lol, nice one Dotanuki. Id have to side with the people saying that Musashi saw the skill of the cut and decided not to go through withthe duel.

[rick]

I've read the book of five rings I don't think that is why he declined. My take is ...... the cut was a display of skill .... the flower gesture of peace .....
the realization their is no honor in killing an old man who put away his sword .... the flower was probably the most beautiful flower in the garden.

The cut itself was a demonstration of skill having cut only that flower. The flower, a gesture of peace, being any other material like paper or bamboo would offended Musashi. But the most beautiful flower in the garden was a gesture, the old man was willing to sacrifice it to avoid bloodshed and seeing this, Musashi realized there was no honor in killing an old man who put away his sword years ago.

[bobO]

Rick,That was beautiful,I mean i'm blown away by that sensitive and insightful observation.Well done my friend.

[rick]

why thanx bobo

[Nanshoji]

I agree, that makes more sense then any of the other takes on here. I have another story of Musashi,I got it from the book "The Illustrated History of Martial Arts"(man what a long title, lol). I apologize, but I cant recall the dads, sons, or the schools names. I know it sounds like Im making this up, but I promise Im not. The story is this, "Musashi challenged the head teacher of a sword school to a duel. He accepted, but was cut down by Musashi. The mans son had been charged with the duty of restoring his familys' honor and challenged Musashi to a duel, which he accepted. Musashi was to meet the son at a temple. The son and his five body guards waited for musashi, but were growing impatient, as Musashi was late. But, Musashi had already beaten them to the temple and was hiding in a tree above them far enough to be out of sight, reveiwing the terrain. When Musashi thought that the son and his body guards had let down their guard, he jumped down from the tree, and sliced off the boys head, sending it spinning in the air. Seeing this, the guards were stuned momentarilly giving Musashi time to run into a near by bambo thicket so he could fight the guards one at a time. He killed three then ran." The story cotinues, but it is very long, at least three more pages. There is really nothing to take on, but it is interesting story in my opinion.

[Mako]

I've read the book of five rings I don't think that is why he declined. My take is ...... the cut was a display of skill .... the flower gesture of peace .....
the realization their is no honor in killing an old man who put away his sword .... the flower was probably the most beautiful flower in the garden.

The cut itself was a demonstration of skill having cut only that flower. The flower, a gesture of peace, being any other material like paper or bamboo would offended Musashi. But the most beautiful flower in the garden was a gesture, the old man was willing to sacrifice it to avoid bloodshed and seeing this, Musashi realized there was no honor in killing an old man who put away his sword years ago.
I don't think that the actual cut of the flower had anything to do with it and stand by my original post.:>
Could it be that Musashi realized that there was no glory in challenging and killing an old man who had retired to his garden and he may have dishonored himself if he had done so.

[rick]

that ones in the book of five ring too ......

[jwilliams]

Rick,
I have really enjoyed "The Life Giving Sword" By Yagyu Munenori ,"The Unfettered Mind" by Takuan Soho, "Hagakure" by Yamamoto Tsunetomo (kind of rambling) all translated by William Scott Wilson. "Flashing Steel" by Masayuki Shimabukuro and Leonard Pellman, "The Art of Japanese Swordsmanship" by Nicklaus Suino and "IAI The Art of Drawing the Sword" by Darrell Max Craig. I have been slowly making my way through these books. These are books to read, study and ponder not to read through to get through like a novel. You will find that you will want to go back and read parts over and over. These should be life changing and life enriching.

[rick]

thanks j. i'll take the list with me next time I go to barnse & noble

[bobO]

Thanks J they all look worthy of a read,I'm making a list.Checking it twice.

[rick]

mako you really can tell a lot about a person and thair sword buy a very simple cut ......... for example ........ direction can tell wich hand they fight
with ...... angle tells a favored attack ...... fray or tareing tells sharpness
... stain or smeer tells the level of care reseved by the blade ...... so on and so on

[bobO]

Once I get a chance to read this book again you guy's are in trouble.Until then I'm sitting back and watching the action.Just one thing,he must have know his opponents age?So something else must have changed his mind ,yes?

[rick]

I kinda stole mine from the library

[RedZorak]

My take is pretty much the same as Mako's. He already knew he was a master, so the skill of the cut shouldn't have swayed his decision.

"The Life Giving Sword" was an excellent read, and so was "Hagakure," however I think that alot of the meaning behind "Hagakure" is lost to us and in the end is meaningless to us nowadays. "Flashing Steel" is also a great read, it has many good stories in the beginning chapters. The rest of it is good as referrence for the kata.

[rick]

I will get those books

[Mako]

mako you really can tell a lot about a person and thair sword buy a very simple cut ......... for example ........ direction can tell wich hand they fight
with ...... angle tells a favored attack ...... fray or tareing tells sharpness
... stain or smeer tells the level of care reseved by the blade ...... so on and so on
All that from the stalk of a single flower? I doubt it somehow.>:P

Musashi wouldn't have known which direction the flower was facing when when it was cut or what blade it was cut with,unless he was a Forensic Scientist too.:)
Not to mention that all Samurai were trained as right handed from childhood,regardless of the fact that they may have been born naturally left handed which would have made some of them equally proficient at cutting a flower with either hand,I should imagine.
No Sir...I'll agree that the flower was symbollic but the cut was of no significance to Musashi IMHO.

[jwilliams]

I know I have already said once what I thought about this and I can agree with or at least see each side but as I was looking through "Five Rings" again I found a quote from Musashi "The main idea of my Way of strategy is to win. There is nothing else." If he was looking for this retired swordsman to duel him that is what he was going to do, not have his mind changed out of compassion or some other ideal that we know, he didn't want to lose and I think the thought of possibly losing was the only thing that could have turned him away. He was also a contemporary of Munenori and never hunted him down to duel with him either. Takuan, in advising Munenori, said "You are a master of martial arts without equal in the past or the present." I believe he was talking of Musashi also.

I may have found the meaning of the flower..So maybe I disregard the above to a point. Takuan in the "Tai-A Ki: Notes on the Peerless Sword", which is the name of the sword that has no equal, said " Sometimes experts' blades cross, with neither winner nor loser; when Buddha held up a flower, Kasyapa smiled. If people who have both realized the original face meet, and both draw the Tai-A sword, there is no way to determine the winner and loser in a contest--what then? The answer is that it is like the meeting of the Buddha and Kasyapa.

At the last assembly on Spiritual Mountain, the Buddha held up a flower before a crowd of eighty thousand; all remained silent, except for Kasyapa, who smiled. Then the Buddha knew that Kasyapa had attained enlightenment, and testified, "I entrust to you the truth that is specially transmitted outside of doctrine, without literalism.""

It later states "Thus there isn't a single martial artist in a hundred thousand who has attained this teaching of holding up a flower and smiling, but if there is anyone on the Greatest Vehicle who wants to know, study for thirty more years! If you go wrong, not only will you fail to master martial arts, you will go to hell as fast as an arrow. Better watch out!"

I'm sure Takuan taught these principles to Musashi. Sorry about the drawn out post but I found it pretty cool.

[rick]

A hollow victory would have harmed musashi more than any blade ever could
A duel with out honor would harm him through history as well as remorse
and doubt would alter his mind set longer than a broken bone would alter his limb

[bobO]

J,By George,I think you got it,on all points.The old man was saying the best your going to do is a draw.That would not sit well with him.A draw being the death of both of them.You get rep from me for that one.Ain't learning fun!

[jwilliams]

Learning is a great adventure, and it never ends. You can do it until you're old and gray and your body doesn't betray you.

[rick]

I've had a few hollow victorys that still screw with me

[Dotanuki]

J, That was a very insightfull post, The more you study the more you realise you have just scratched the surface. On the official Niten Ichi Ryu website it says you have to understand the Buddhist sutras to truely understand what Musashi was talking about. You can read more here;

http://www.hyoho.com/Hyoho1.html

J,
And intersting book for you to read would be "Giving UP the Gun" Japan's Reversion to the Sword, 1545-1879 by Noel Perrin.

[bobO]

Thank you Dotanuki,That was awesome.

[jwilliams]

Thank you Dotanuki, I appreciate it. It's a big surface, and there truly is no end to learning

[rick]

who's got more zen riddles it was just getting good

[Nanshoji]

I agree that those do sound like good reads.

I found this neat book on ninjitsuryu.com. It has some really neat info, mostly attacks and things like that, but it is really neat, you should check it out.