Tamahagane ???

[Mako]

The following is taken from 'The Craft of the Japanese Sword' by Leon and Hiroko Kapp with Yoshindo Yoshihara.
Any breach of copyright is unintentional and all credit is respectfully due to the original authors.



Tamahagane: Japanese steel.
Steel is iron that contains carbon: the more carbon, the harder the steel.
Most swordsmiths in Japan work with a traditional form of steel called tamahagane. This is produced today almost exclusively in a single Japanese style smelter , called a tatara, operated by the NBTHK, a small town in Shimane Prefecture, Western Honshu. The tatara, like other smelters, relies on the propensity of very hot iron to combine with carbon in its vicinity to produce steel. In the tatara, it is burning charcoal that supplies the carbon. Although the Japanese tatara is efficient, the tamahagane it produces is still fairly crude at the time it reaches the smith, who refines it by forging to reduce the carbon content and to make a more malleable final steel suitable for swordmaking.
Swords can also be made out of electrolytic iron (denkai-tetsu) which is 99.99% pure iron made from scrap metal in an electric furnace. By processing it in a small home smelter, the smith can add an appropriate amount of carbon to the steel. Similarly, sponge iron (kangan tetsu) produced by removing all oxygen during smelting, is smelted again by the smith to obtain high carbon steel.
Yoshindo's first choice is always tamahagane, which he feels is easiest to forge and produces the best steel for swords. There are large differences in the cost of these materials. Tamahagane costs about $20 per pound; electrolytic iron costs $3 per pound. Sponge iron costs $65 per ton. Since a smith needs 5 or 6 pounds of tamahagane to produce a single pound of sword steel, tamahagane for just a single blade can end up costing as much as $200.
The prices quoted above are from 1987, so God knows how much it costs today and 'sponge iron' is what I believe to be more commonly known as wrought iron. :)


Discuss. ;)

[loempe]

Talking tamahagane from a japanese point of definition or from a generic point of view?

Iron sand is iron sand. Or perhaps not?! It is a very interesting topic to discus ;-)

From a nihonto point of view, the NBTHK-tamahagane steel is essential to have a sword appraised and registered in a NBTHK-competition. Much like most blades entering the NBTHK is in hadori polish - an official taste criteria to obtain success.

The vikings smelted their steel too in clay smelters, using the high carbon part of the 'heart' for swords - much like the japanese tatara technique. Obviously the korean and the chinese has had the technique for an even longer time.

Objectively speaking, molecules is the only way to truly distinguis smeltet iron sand...it is a regional/geografical/geological composition of minerals. All iron sand is suitable for swords. However, speaking from a subjective point of view, iron sand from one place to another gives the final product different qualities such as differences in color, corrosion resistance, forging/welding qualities. It is like where do your local supply store get your essentials! - What works for you...what do you prefer?!

In other words, have a bite of the moon and turn it into not only a beatiful sword, but also make it the choise of a generation...it's strictly business subdued to economical, social and cultural positioning (IMHO) ;-).

tetsu can be forge folded like tamahagane - Oroshigane can be tamahagane. The magic is in the hands of the smith.

Oh!... Could anyone ask NBTHK what minerals the iron sand in Shimane prefecture consists of? That would make a great contribution to this thread.

[Mako]

I was thinking more along the line that most of us are aware that the word Nihonto means Japanese sword and as tamahagane is also a Japanese word for sword steel that is used in many of their ancient and modern 'art swords', is it reasonable for manufacturers of Japanese style swords in other countries to claim that they're made from tamahagane or is it just a marketing ploy? :-?

[loempe]

I was thinking more along the line that most of us are aware that the word Nihonto means Japanese sword and as tamahagane is also a Japanese word for sword steel that is used in many of their ancient and modern 'art swords', is it reasonable for manufacturers of Japanese style swords in other countries to claim that they're made from tamahagane or is it just a marketing ploy? :-?

...And I am thinking somewhere in the line of having any sword manufacturer list their swords according to steel composition vs. forging technique in the same manner steel mills display their product line. It would make things a bit more comparable and transparent. It would work as a marketing tool - but more in the line of a consumer orientated marketing strategy based on the notion of the expert consumer (which is by the way the current buzz in Scandinavian business development circles). I'm thinking this way, since many forumites really distrust the (obscure) swordbuzz marketing ploys of today.

oh...by the way, found this link to Shimane prefecture/info on tatara and iron sand: http://www.kankou-shimane.com/en/unnan/index.html

Here's a knowledge source of iron sand composition of the black sea, including shimane iron sand compo:
http://www.jstor.org/pss/3642764

If manufacturers of japanese like swords use the term tamahagane they would benefit from including info on exactly where the iron sand was originally purchased. In this way, Shimane iron sand tamahagane would still stand out on its own right, yet also create a sense of authenticity towards other regional iron sands qualities used for swords. i.e create an improved (and consumer orientated) market environment for product development. And why not, when infact we are all discussing the quality (steel composition vs. forging technique) of so called high end custom and semi custom "tamahagane" production swords?

[Ichiban]

If you look at it very traditionally, tamahagane is only made in Japan and worked by japanese recognized smiths (not necessarily japanese). Kinda like champagne is only made in the Champagne region in France by traditional methods. Even though the steel is the same in China, it ain't tamahagane. This has to do with both tradition and not least the feeling of authenticity.

It's no doubt that the sword industry with their production base in China are using the term tamahagane for what it's worth. Tamahagane is a magic $$$ word. I don't know too much about the production methods, but with my superficial knowledge I believe that in most cases it's enough to achieve the look of tamahagane to label it as tamahagane. I don't think the tamahagane swords are meant for the expert market, the knowledge of japanese swords and produstion swords are too high there to be "fooled". I believe the prime market for tamahagane labeled swords are people of high interest, medium knowledge and with money to burn. There are recognized chinese forges that makes sword steel by carburizing iron sand to achieve a traditional steel type, but these swords are often nearly as expensive as their cusom made american counterparts from recognized smiths.

But then again, it's the ever appearing conflict between tradition and industry. There is no doubt that chinese or american swords are technically as good as japanese made for use, the problem is only that they aren't japanese. :D

My personal opinion is that a japanese shinsakuto made of tamahagane is a desirable art object, the manifestation of a thousand year old tradition, and a chinese counterpart no matter how accurately made is just a copy.

Looking beyond the terms, I appreciate a well made sword for what it is, and tamahagane is just a word.

Here is a close up of a chinese folded blade I got my hands on for $140, it ain't tamahagane but very well folded and clayed tool steel with a very tight pattern. Because of the polish there aint much activity outside the yakiba, but I guess a stone polish can take care of that.

http://i741.photobucket.com/albums/xx60/Havengel/P11-06-10_1636.jpg

[loempe]

Mmm! I get your point Ichiban...and perhaps taking your thoughts a bit further the preference for tamahagane and traditional forging technique is about appraisal, i.e 'reading' the hada for various purposes.

I forge blades to learn how to 'read' blades better (and for a lot of other reasons).

Now is tamahagane about looks? Perhaps from a collectors point of view (appreciation of the craft and the beauty of a sword)...but grapes for champagne is not about looks, even from a champagne collectors point of view ;-) Hell, it only took one reply in my new thread about my so called tamahagane blade to state that the blade is not tamahagane - it was chinese and it was (only) folded ;-) ...Still a custom beauty worthy of a presentation-teaser.

(red: ) Looking really close in on the hada, I still wonder if it is made by wafers rather than billets, since I really can't follow the layers the entire length of the blade!?

The way I understand it, a traditional appraisal is about quality control... Back in the war periods: It did make sense to have a polisher reveal the structural outcome of a particular forging/heatreatment technique - to let the product speak for itself on behalf of the smith. Reading a sword is quite like learning story telling. You can tell how the blade is made, when the smith had trouble, how he solved this, and ultimately rate his skills according to aesthethics and functionality (strength and usability) or how well these are combined, as in how well and why the hada interacts with the hamon. Much like 'reading' calligraphy. That is, it makes 'sense' if you can sense the (biographical and historical/living) person, the raw material behind the sword (much like a combined method of litterature analysis on intention vs. interpretation).

oh... I'm on a ramble...sorry, but do you get my drift? ;-)

[Ichiban]

Oh yes, reading the hada is part of kantei (sword appraisal) and reveals both how it's forged and the skill of the smith. But I guess it's only readable for a very skilled person or a smith, and beyond the appearance it doesn't tell much about the swords structural integrity for someone unskilled as I am.

I'd say with todays modern steel alloys and modern forging methods that you in many cases can make better swords than with traditional methods. One of the reasons why I customize swords is to learn about japanese swords, and it that way modern reproductions can tell me a lot because of what is done wrong. :D In the same way a smith can learn much from the refined japanese methods and develop his own approach, which could be readable by kantei.

[loempe]

...off cause modern steels can be made stronger and made to hold superior functional qualities like 'forgiving' resilience and tuffer edge hold - which is marketed for cutting bottles, matts etc. or taken to a high level in modern sword making by western smiths and polishers. I think we agree a lot on that one.

But this thread is still a discussion about tamahagane per se and the use of the term in marketing ploys per se - is it ok to use the japanese term for non-japanese made swords?

Instead of everyone giving a subjective 'yes' or 'no' the fun of this thread is to discuss what is tamahagane worth besides tradition if you can get the same look from modern steel wafers/billets? Yoshindo Yoshihara "...prefers tamahagane because it is easier to work with" - Kapp/Yoshihara/The Craft of the Japanese Sword.

I'm trying to discuss iron sand as a means of raw material for any smith to choose and use in his marketing to distinguish himself from others - like smiths of reputed knowledge and swordmaking did back in those samurai war times.

I don't mind, say, a chinese or danish smith use the term tamahagane as long as he (or she?!) states exactly which iron sand he or someone else made the tamahagane from. Thats one of my main points. It's not ok to call it tamahagane to make me believe that it is, say, Shimane iron sand, when it's not.

So instead of talking tamahagane we should perhaps talk about minerals, molecules and internal structure or perhaps go japanese once again and start to advocate for the use of readymade terms like denkai tetsu and kangan tetsu if oroshigane or scrap'agane isn't good enough for the production market. Again, my aim is transparency in product info.

It would be cool to own a properly made nihonto made of tamahagane... But it would be equally and utterly cool as well to, say, own a properly made denkai tetsu blade made by wafers instead of the commonly used billets. There is a big difference in looks there too. ;-)

[Ichiban]

There is another side of the marketing than just drawing customers, and that is to use japanese terms to describe a product or a process for recognition and ease. This would apply to any smith working in the japanese tradition. But as the terms are heavily abused in low end sword marketing, it's really worth nothing unless the smith or forge is recognized.

My understanding of tamahagane used in chinese production high end swords or high end custom swords is that it's mostly steel made by traditional methods, iron sand, contrary to oroshigane or ready made steel. But it doesn't always seem to be the rule either. I've just as often seen it used on modern steel with similar properties of traditional japanese steel, and folded to look like tamahagane. I guess this is why I'm very ambivalent to the chinese forges using the term tamahagane, because there's no consistency in the steel type.

It seems transparency in product info from China is difficult to achieve
because of many factors. One is the obvious inconsistency in raw materials in China, if one supplier is depleted they just get it from someone else, and the quality may be different. Second is quality control, which used to be real bad but is slowly getting better. Third is that outsourcing is quite common, not only for parts but the whole product. So there can be differences within a production run or batch. I guess this is one of the results of the communistic system, where statistics and production numbers are more important than quality and consistency. Even the large brands are having problems with quality and delivery times.

[loempe]

Again, I honestly believe that we are on the same page here. And what you just said, is exactly what I'm advocating for (to avoid) in non-japanese sword manufacturering - isn't that obvious by now?

So if we agree on everything, myths and facts in modern production swords, where do we go from here?

Ichiban, it was your idea/interest to have this thread started by Mako...so what is your interest in talking tamahagane, in your own words? that is, if not all ready answered.

And do you think my point is valid enough even though the chinese production market is troubled with all kinds of obstacles and inconsistencies?

Last but not least...Is there any other forumites with an opinion about this out there? ...Mako?!

[Ichiban]

I see that we agree, I'm trying to keep the debate going anyway. :D I've pretty much said what I have to remark about tamahagane and waiting for others to chime in. I have a quite traditional approach to the subject.

But if we rule out the marketing jippo is it desireable to make a steel similar to tamahagane for any other reason than tradition?

[Dotanuki]

Talking tamahagane from a japanese point of definition or from a generic point of view?

Iron sand is iron sand. Or perhaps not?! It is a very interesting topic to discus ;-)

From a nihonto point of view, the NBTHK-tamahagane steel is essential to have a sword appraised and registered in a NBTHK-competition. Much like most blades entering the NBTHK is in hadori polish - an official taste criteria to obtain success.

The vikings smelted their steel too in clay smelters, using the high carbon part of the 'heart' for swords - much like the japanese tatara technique. Obviously the korean and the chinese has had the technique for an even longer time.

Objectively speaking, molecules is the only way to truly distinguis smeltet iron sand...it is a regional/geografical/geological composition of minerals. All iron sand is suitable for swords. However, speaking from a subjective point of view, iron sand from one place to another gives the final product different qualities such as differences in color, corrosion resistance, forging/welding qualities. It is like where do your local supply store get your essentials! - What works for you...what do you prefer?!

In other words, have a bite of the moon and turn it into not only a beatiful sword, but also make it the choise of a generation...it's strictly business subdued to economical, social and cultural positioning (IMHO) ;-).

tetsu can be forge folded like tamahagane - Oroshigane can be tamahagane. The magic is in the hands of the smith.

Oh!... Could anyone ask NBTHK what minerals the iron sand in Shimane prefecture consists of? That would make a great contribution to this thread.

When is iron sand not iron sand?
When it is tamahagane!

It is not the minerals of the iron sand in the shimane prefecture that hold the secret, the secret is the sand itself, which is the spirit of Japan!

To understand the Japanese sword, you have to understand Shinto (the way of the Gods). The Japanese believe that many things in the material universe can hold a spirit.
A grove of trees.
An ancient cave.
A katana.

When the japanese smiths create a Nihon-To, it is a spiritual as well as a physical undertaking. The making of the blade is a true ceremony with purification rituals and prayer for one purpose.
To imbue the sword with a kami. (spirit)
The iron sand of Shimane also has a Kami (the spirit of Japan)
It is like sperm traveling to the womb (forge) of the Japanese smith waiting to be imbued with a spirit and born as a existence of a NihonTo.
The centuries and countless smiths using it as such has made the kami of the tamahagane even stronger. This is why it is even more revered today!

This is why the japanese swords are the world's most famous swords!
It goes way beyond the materials used, it is the spirit of the sword!
The spirit of Japan!

This is why famous Iai shihan perform their Iai kata with NihonTo.
To become one with the spirit of the sword!

This is why a NihonTo and tamahagane can only come from Japan!
Because they are the very imbodiment of the Japanese culture and spirit.

If you cannot understand this, then you don't understand the Japanese sword at all.

[willrichtor]

As much work as the iron sands require for their purification and concentration, I think that maybe "spirit" is not enough. Indeed I would say it doesn't just have spirit, but toukon! :flaming:

[bobO]

will, certainly it embodies the fighting spirit of Japan, but I think it 's even more then that. Dot I think that says it all.

[loempe]

When is iron sand not iron sand?
When it is tamahagane!

It is not the minerals of the iron sand in the shimane prefecture that hold the secret, the secret is the sand itself, which is the spirit of Japan!

To understand the Japanese sword, you have to understand Shinto (the way of the Gods). The Japanese believe that many things in the material universe can hold a spirit.
A grove of trees.
An ancient cave.
A katana.

When the japanese smiths create a Nihon-To, it is a spiritual as well as a physical undertaking. The making of the blade is a true ceremony with purification rituals and prayer for one purpose.
To imbue the sword with a kami. (spirit)
The iron sand of Shimane also has a Kami (the spirit of Japan)
It is like sperm traveling to the womb (forge) of the Japanese smith waiting to be imbued with a spirit and born as a existence of a NihonTo.
The centuries and countless smiths using it as such has made the kami of the tamahagane even stronger. This is why it is even more revered today!

This is why the japanese swords are the world's most famous swords!
It goes way beyond the materials used, it is the spirit of the sword!
The spirit of Japan!

This is why famous Iai shihan perform their Iai kata with NihonTo.
To become one with the spirit of the sword!

This is why a NihonTo and tamahagane can only come from Japan!
Because they are the very imbodiment of the Japanese culture and spirit.

If you cannot understand this, then you don't understand the Japanese sword at all.

I'm sorry Dotanuki, but in what way did I possibly offend you, to release such a fierce attack on my personal understanding of nihonto? Maybe it's just my language barrier, but I feel that you haven't entirely read my words and to be honest I don't see why I or any one else deserve such a tone from you...after all I haven't attacked you, nor nihonto, but only chinese marketing ploys. If you like, we can find a schrubbary and say NI...:duel:

(Edited) ...Or maby I just got the 'you' wrong, as willrichtor suggests below, thanks Will ;-) Nice anecdote...one to think of

[Ichiban]

I must say I have a more pragmatic view on the japanese sword than Dotanuki.

SOME nihonto were imbued, most were not. Most nihonto were mid to low quality tools of war, and they are not regarded in the same way as the ones made by recognized smiths. In fact they were regarded as discardable. Remember the buke class before Edo consisted of not only samurai, but also professional ashigaru and conscripted ashigaru who also were equipped with katana. The bow and horse were the signs of nobility and the samurai.

I consider the view of the japanese sword as the spirit of the samurai a result of the Edo period worship of the buke class. In a time of less conflict and with the samurai class being reduced to more bureaucrats than warriors, this was a way of keeping the warrior spirit alive and the class in it's place.

[willrichtor]

loempe, I don't think that was an attack on you, but on people who fall for the misleading marketing rhetoric employed by some of these makers. Maybe I am wrong, but I read you and Dotanuki as coming to the same ends although by different means. For example:

loempe: tetsu can be forge folded like tamahagane - Oroshigane can be tamahagane. The magic is in the hands of the smith.

Dotanuki: It is not the minerals of the iron sand in the shimane prefecture that hold the secret, the secret is the sand itself, which is the spirit of Japan!... When the japanese smiths create a Nihon-To, it is a spiritual as well as a physical undertaking. The making of the blade is a true ceremony with purification rituals and prayer for one purpose. To imbue the sword with a kami. (spirit)

Both of you are essentially pointing to the smiths as where the real magic lies. In Dotanuki's case his words illustrate the power of belief, tradition and ritual in creating functional art.

Yes, different materials can be treated like tamahagane, can be manipulated to achieve similar characteristics. Wrought iron can be baked in hot coals and end up producing some of the most beautiful pattern welding material you can imagine. Indo-Persian Wootz steel was similar in structure, properties AND method of smelting. And they ALL strive and ultimately fail to achieve what is achieved in modern production mills - homogenized bar stock, laminated countless times under more pressure than any smith and apprentice could ever manage, and with absolute control over carbon and other mineral contents.

But the old traditional way has one thing going for it, that intangible faith and pride associated with doing it the old way. Certainly not every sword is imbued with Kami, not every sword in the world, not every Nihonto. The same is true the world round - not everyone who undertakes a profession gives themselves to it, giving all they have to every effort. It has always bothered me that people disregarded the old CAS Iberia european swords as not authentic, when in fact they were extremely authentic to the lowest common denominator. Most foot soldiers throughout the middle ages right up into the renaissance were doing REAL well to have enough money to afford a fairly straight, soft iron swords with a workable carburized edge. Something heavy and sharp enough to cleave, and pliable enough to stomp back into shape quickly. It's the same the world round.

But for the people who do put their all into it, the smiths in their ceremonial robes who, while they labour toward their finished product, undertake no other labours, and acknowledge no other distraction, there IS an intangible something endowed into the things they create, born of that faith in tradition, and the satisfaction of believing that the way they do things is, for them, truly the best way to do them.

A violin that I passed down to my little sister years ago developed a crack in it's top. I studied the crack for a few days and thought out my options, the most obvious of which was to use elmer's. After a lot of thought, I decided to undertake Norizuke. I spent a LONG time mashing old rice into a paste of the right consistency. I did it for a couple of reasons 1) because the thought of working in the old way, sitting in seiza and scraping rice back and forth in a bowl with a spatula, fascinated me, and 2) because I know that a couple of the properties of this old paste were that it held tight, and was easy to clean up AND remove should it ever prove necessary. I knew a little would go a long way and with instruments, the less glue used, the better, because glue doesn't vibrate. Because of the labour involved in doing it this way, I did a much better job of the repair than if I had just squirted some elmers in the crack and clamped.

But I talk too much. A zen elder took his students to a retreat hosted by one of his elders. One of those students began to complain after several days of meditation in silence.

"Master, we have sat and nothing has been said. At this rate we'll have wasted the whole retreat. It would be enough to hear the two words 'Absolute Truth'"

to which the elder replied "Fool! There are not two words one can say about absolute truth..." at which point he stopped, slapped his own forehead and said "What have I said?"

The elder hosting the retreat opened one eye, smiled, and said: "A fine pot of broth, befouled by two rats' droppings."

[bobO]

Will, Bless you! I went to bed with this post on my mind, got up this morning and right to the puter. And you said every thing I wanted to with much more eloquence then I ever could. I also believe there was no personal attack just a passionate explanation of what the Japanese sword is about. I got into a discussion on another forum about what katana would you take into battle , a new modern production sword or a traditionally made one. All the kids said a modern one. This stunned me, how could anyone think this. Sure modern ones have purer steel, but that would be the only advantage. Sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees. I think everyone had good and valid points. Bottom line if it's not made in the old way, by those taught in same, then it's just not the real deal. All together a very good read.

[Mako]

Last but not least...Is there any other forumites with an opinion about this out there? ...Mako?!

Don't mind me, I just started the thread because it was suggested by 'Ichiban' after he posted...

No, go on Mako, I'm very interested in this.

It seems somewhere between three and four tons of tatara made tamagahane is produced a year, and with the allowed amount of produced swords there wouldn't be enough for more than around third to half of them made of tamahagane. If I remember correctly it will be around 6000 swords a year that is allowed to make.

I've heard the term oroshigane mentioned, which is sword steel made by the smith himself, his own personal mix which can be made from scrap steel, sponge iron, wrought iron or iron sand which is carburized.

I believe that there are about 600 licensed smiths in Japan today, each is allowed to forge and sell 2 swords per month, requiring 20 pounds of tamahagane and if every smith is active and makes his annual quota of 24, that's over 64 tons of tamahagane per annum.
Keeping in mind that active makunsa smiths like Ono Yoshimitsu, Matsuda Tsuguyasu, Furukawa Kiyoyuki, and Ogawa Kanekuni may forge 10 blades a month but discard 8, the amount of tamahagane produced is not anywhere near enough to supply the full time professional Japanese smiths, let alone sell some outside Japan.
I don't know how much tamahagane is smelted annually but 1 ingot (kera) weighs approx. 2 tons and 50% is usually rejected as having too little or too much carbon content, it is this that is smelted again by the smith himself adding to or reducing the carbon content and known as orishigane, not the other steels smelted by a smith known as denkai-tetsu and kangan-tetsu with the smith adding his own blend of carbon to scrap steel or wrought iron.
In the link that 'loempe' posted to Shimane Prefecture, it's stated that the tamahagane is distributed to 250 smiths but even this doesn't add up when you consider that Takuo Suzuki who is the guy who oversees the smelting in the tatara on the site of the ancient Yasukuni Shrine outside Yokota City and has done since 1975 only visits there 6 or 7 times a year, some of which are for the instruction of apprentices in the construction of tatara and the process of converting iron sand (satetsu) into a kera of tamahagane.
Almost 27 tons would be required to make 6,000 swords...which begs the question as to how many shinsaku-to are actually made from tamahagane if only 3-4 tons is being smelted. :-?
My personal opinion is that any sword made outside Japan which claims to be forged from tamahagane is wrong.

[Torawashi]

This is a very interesting thread. I know next to nothing about the subject matter and so will stay out of the discussion and simply read and learn. Thank you my friends.

[bobO]

I do have one question, How is the iron sand treated by the Japanese gov? is it considered a national resource or can anyone go down to the beach and go away with a pickup truck full of the stuff. Do the Koreans hit the beach at night and steal some. I know there running out of the stuff.

[Ichiban]

Will, Bless you! I went to bed with this post on my mind, got up this morning and right to the puter. And you said every thing I wanted to with much more eloquence then I ever could. I also believe there was no personal attack just a passionate explanation of what the Japanese sword is about. I got into a discussion on another forum about what katana would you take into battle , a new modern production sword or a traditionally made one. All the kids said a modern one. This stunned me, how could anyone think this. Sure modern ones have purer steel, but that would be the only advantage. Sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees. I think everyone had good and valid points. Bottom line if it's not made in the old way, by those taught in same, then it's just not the real deal. All together a very good read.

I would definetly use a modern sword. One of the backdraws of the traditionally made katana is that the edge is quite brittle as it were not tempered after hardening due to the layered construction. So a traditional made katana will probably break easier than a modern L6 katana, probably easier than a well made production sword too.

[Taygrd]

Tamahagane is a Japanese product and used in Nihonto, but you also have to remember the were Nihonto made with "Barbarian Steel" purchased from Dutch traders. The Japanese smiths valued this steel as well. Most of these blades are marked as being made with barbarian steel. Would you consider these swords non-Nihonto?

[Mako]

I do have one question, How is the iron sand treated by the Japanese gov? is it considered a national resource or can anyone go down to the beach and go away with a pickup truck full of the stuff. Do the Koreans hit the beach at night and steal some. I know there running out of the stuff.
:)
I've no idea how the iron sand is regarded by the Japanese Government but it was taken from the river beds and banks and only 1% of the bulk sand is iron, this was then run into water channels with ripple bars on the bottom where the heavier iron sand would fall behind them and the lighter sand washed away, much the same as gold I guess...nowadays the bulk sand is excavated with a machine and the iron extracted with an electromagnet.

[loempe]

I must say I have a more pragmatic view on the japanese sword than Dotanuki.

SOME nihonto were imbued, most were not. Most nihonto were mid to low quality tools of war, and they are not regarded in the same way as the ones made by recognized smiths. In fact they were regarded as discardable. Remember the buke class before Edo consisted of not only samurai, but also professional ashigaru and conscripted ashigaru who also were equipped with katana. The bow and horse were the signs of nobility and the samurai.

I consider the view of the japanese sword as the spirit of the samurai a result of the Edo period worship of the buke class. In a time of less conflict and with the samurai class being reduced to more bureaucrats than warriors, this was a way of keeping the warrior spirit alive and the class in it's place.

Many historians agree with you on this one. And to support the pragmatics, apparently it is historically correct to say that the sword has always been a secondary weapon among the buke class and the samurai class in the battle field. The bow and spear were the primary weapons for samurai before the muscet took it's place. For the buke class the primary weapon was the spear - if a spear was too expencive, then the naginata, a pole, a stick, a brick...whatever worked that day in the battle field in front of a wild bunch of horseback riding samurais or loose footsoldiers... you would want the advantage of the long(est) weapon, as a soldier with minimum combat training.

And...Lord Oda Nobunaga wiped out an entire army with muscets...I bet he smiled that day. But it makes me wonder, if Nobunaga would have used his muscets if he thought that the sword embodied the japanese spirit.

(edited) sorry Mako and everybody else...please disregard any of the above remarks, notion, facts etc. This thread is dedicated to debating tamahagane and related issues ;-)

[willrichtor]

That's not something isolated to Japan. In fact the spear was the weapon of choice of the entire world from prehistory until the proliferation of firearms, and even then the Zulus harried the superiour British riflemen with their short spears and superiour tactics. I would find it hard to believe a spear has ever been too expensive for a foot soldier to come by - it is the most efficient of the ancient weapons of war. It provides the greatest range for close combat and the highest ratio of lethal potential to required working edge. Any ideas how many spears one can make with the material needed to craft one adze?

[Mako]

Gentlemen,
Just for once, can we please try to stay on topic.
This thread was started because of the interest expressed in tamahagane, muskets were not made of this and neither were the assegai of the Zulu Impi.
Feel free to discuss the merits of tamahagane V modern steels etc. but let's not go down the old road that's been travelled so many times before.

What about the discrepancy in the supply of tamahagane and the projected number of shinsaku-to or the man-tetsu blades that 'Taygrd' mentioned and the maru forged swords issued to Ashigaru that 'Ichiban' referred to?
There's a myriad of unanswered questions that can be discussed on this subject IMO.

[bobO]

The vid I put up is of a very famous smith who was know for combining diff types of steel. you know leaf springs scrap etc. When a blade was made by barbarian steel it was usually clearly marked as so. What they do now (I think ) is use the tam as the insert for the cutting edge or as the skin or both. withe the softer ( almost iron) steel as the core. Not to say that there are not swords made completely of tam, but I think only the best smiths do this now. you know Tam is a very very good steel. The wonder is they made this steel with primitive methods and no great iron resources. You want to see how good Japanese steel is get yourself a blade made of blue or white paper steel and put an edge on it, it will open your eyes.

[willrichtor]

bobO, that brings to mind a scene from a movie, either one of the Highlanders or the Hunted, where a smith uses an ingot of clearly special steel to add to the rest of the material he was making the sword from.

Is tamahagane or the sand from which it is obtained even an export of Japan? When I was having my recent katana made, it was mentioned to me that they were making Tamahagane blades now if I was interested. I got the distinct impression that he was referring to Japanese Tamahagane as the method of obtaining the steel, not the material itself. The language barrier is of course ever present as is the tendency of speakers of foreign languages to translate rather than transliterate.

[zentredi]

This is a very interesting thread. I know next to nothing about the subject matter and so will stay out of the discussion and simply read and learn. Thank you my friends.ditto

[Mako]

The vid I put up is of a very famous smith who was know for combining diff types of steel. you know leaf springs scrap etc. When a blade was made by barbarian steel it was usually clearly marked as so. What they do now (I think ) is use the tam as the insert for the cutting edge or as the skin or both. withe the softer ( almost iron) steel as the core. Not to say that there are not swords made completely of tam, but I think only the best smiths do this now. you know Tam is a very very good steel. The wonder is they made this steel with primitive methods and no great iron resources. You want to see how good Japanese steel is get yourself a blade made of blue or white paper steel and put an edge on it, it will open your eyes.
The core steel is called shingane Bob. ;)
Is this the vid' which was posted in the other thread?
http://www.youtube.com/v/tv6sU6aVIhE&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0%22%3E%3C/param%3E%3Cparam

(edited) sorry Mako and everybody else...please disregard any of the above remarks, notion, facts etc. This thread is dedicated to debating tamahagane and related issues ;-)
No apology needed man, we're all guilty of straying off topic, in fact I think it's a requirement at times. :)

Is tamahagane or the sand from which it is obtained even an export of Japan?
I would think not Will, it appears there's not even enough of it to supply all the Japanese smiths but I'm reasonably sure that satetsu (iron sand) isn't only found in Japan, apparently the tatara was 'imported' from China via Korea and maybe the Chinese and Koreans have their own words for satetsu and tamahagane. :-/

[bobO]

Right you are mako, Thanks ( as in steel made by the smith himself-right?). Yes that's the vid, are they not working when I post them? I check and they work for me, dang youtube. I'm sure the ie, ko-chi have there own words and they should use them it might have an affect they would like as far as marketing.

[willrichtor]

Now here's another question then. Could Nihonto made from iron sand that the Japanese imported to smelt for themselves legitimately claim to be made of tamahagane?

[Mako]

Now here's another question then. Could Nihonto made from iron sand that the Japanese imported to smelt for themselves legitimately claim to be made of tamahagane?
Which leads to the question as to whether iron sand was ever imported and as 'Taygrd' stated, steel was imported and known as 'Southern barbarian steel' (Nanban-tetsu) and it would appear that many Nihon-to were made from this steel or a blend of local and foreign steels at various times especially during the Shin-to period.
The translation is not perfect but there is copyright on this site...
http://www.k3.dion.ne.jp/~j-gunto/gunto_136.htm

[loempe]

Which leads to the question as to whether iron sand was ever imported and as 'Taygrd' stated, steel was imported and known as 'Southern barbarian steel' (Nanban-tetsu) and it would appear that many Nihon-to were made from this steel or a blend of local and foreign steels at various times especially during the Shin-to period.
The translation is not perfect but there is copyright on this site...
http://www.k3.dion.ne.jp/~j-gunto/gunto_136.htm (http://www.k3.dion.ne.jp/%7Ej-gunto/gunto_136.htm)

Other sources about nanban-tetsu katana and the yasutsugu sword school...note the focus on mineral and acid contents mentioned in various steels.

Effect of Phosphorus Content of Nanban-tetsu on Forgeability of Japanese Sword Making



Author;SUZUKI TAKUO
Journal Title;Tetsu to Hagane

VOL.90;NO.1;PAGE.43-47(2004)
Pub. Country;Japan
Language;Japanese

Abstract;
Nanban-tetsu is a steel which was imported into Japan by Portuguese or Spanish merchant ships in the end of Muromachi period (1392-1573). The steel was produced in India and called "Wootz steel". Nanban-tetsu steel was shaped in some forms of a gourd called "Hyotan", a oval called "Koban", a square timber called "Saijo", a semi-cylinder called "Tajo" and others. In 1613, one of the Japanese sword smith, Echizen Yasutsugu 1, first produced a sword using Nanban-tetsu steel. Since then, many sword smiths who lived in Echizen area (Fukui Prefecture) had used Nanban-tetsu steel as a material of Japanese swords. The steels produced using the "Nittoho-Tatara" furnace in Shimane prefecture has been examined by forge-welding as a function of phosphor content in the steels. It is concluded that "Hyotan" shaped Nanban-tetsu steel is not good for forging, "Saijo" shaped Nanban-tetsu steel is good for forging, "Koban"-shaped one is difficult to forgeweld and "Tajo"-shaped one is intermediate. (author abst.)

http://sciencelinks.jp/j-east/article/200402/000020040204A0035245.php

:-O

Further... a link to another article explaining the yasutsugu sword smith school... with close-up pics of nanban-tetsu katana/hada

http://yakiba.com/article_yasutsugu.htm

[willrichtor]

Holy crap, I was just about to jokingly ask if they ever imported Wootz!

[bobO]

Awesome link Mako. I look all over for this stuff and you just pull it at of yo...thin air. Learned a lot.THANKS! Ask Mako and Bob's your Uncle.

[Dotanuki]

I would like to thank Willrichtor for properly explaining and understanding my post.
It was never meant as a personal attack.
I read post after post about the Japanese sword, all technically describing the sword, most of the time in the japanese terminology. But never do I read any, refering to spirit of the blade.
I never said all NihonTo have a spirit (kami), if you have read any of my other posts and threads on this forum you would know this.
But it appears all references to the smith's spiritualistic forging process have all been ignored.
To ignore Shinto in the study of the japanese sword is to omit the very thing that makes a japanese sword unique and different from other blades.
It takes more than superficially studying something to understand it, especially when there are deeper more metaphysical aspects involved.
In the west, such a blade would be refered to as magical! (such as Durendal)
If you can't understand this or are insulted by this.
So be it.

[bobO]

It's always been my contention that anybody who is going to go thru the rituals that the sword smiths did, ie cleansing mind, body, spirit and focusing there thoughts and energies, before even starting to make the sword. Is the guy I want making my blade.O-sensei did something similar to this every day.

[Taygrd]

I agree, even the smelting of tamahagane had a spiritual side and still does today. There is a shirne that they dedicate before they start.

[loempe]

... To ignore Shinto in the study of the japanese sword is to omit the very thing that makes a japanese sword unique and different from other blades. It takes more than superficially studying something to understand it, especially when there are deeper more metaphysical aspects involved.

I actually agree with your thoughts on shinto and the importance of spiritual focus - not only in understanding the craft of the sword, but in life per se. To me the concept of Giri is even more important as a basis for learning and sharing knowledge.

;)

[Mako]

Is that it? http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/8192/unsure1.gif (http://img341.imageshack.us/i/unsure1.gif/)
I was led to believe that there would be more interest and questions which some may be able to answer that we can all learn from.
What happens to the tamahagane and oshigane from the blades which are rejected by the top smiths?...is it smelted again and used to forge other blades?
If I order a $5-6k shinken in koshirae from a lesser known smith, what steel will it may made from?...it can't be original tamahagane because there isn't enough of it to supply the annual demand for $20k+ swords in shirasaya. :-?

[bobO]

Yeah,I think I want these guys to make my Katana.
http://www.youtube.com/v/_HMIpQHMFHQ&hl=en_US&fs=1