Fighting with the Sword and Shield

[tsafa]

Sword and Shield is one of the oldest and most effective fighting forms. It dates back Ancient Greece and perhaps even further. I have created and uploaded some video to You Tube illustrating some effective sword and shield fighting methods.

Here is a link to the You Tube vids:

This one is about using the point of balance on a sword:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5L4FdkLaTo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5L4FdkLaTo)

This one is about generating sword power:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLKuRmzoggY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLKuRmzoggY)

This one is about using a heater shield:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41uLxwQj_EY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41uLxwQj_EY)


If you are further interested you can read about the details of the mechanics on my Sword and Shield webpage:

http://mysite.verizon.net/tsafa1/pell/index.htm

If you search "tsafa1" on You Tube you will find many of my fighting videos.

[Dotanuki]

Welcome aboard tsafa!!
I myself study all manners of combat, I consider myself a hoplologist, studying all forms of personal combat.
I see where many in the SCA are bringing back the training regimen and lost schools of combat of the middle ages, to put put them on a level of organization/sophistication equal to the Oriental martial arts. I recently seen on the History channel a demonstration of the fighting techniques of the Landsknecht two handed sword, it was fantastic! I was very impressed.
Again, welcome aboard.

[bobO]

tsafa,welcome to the forum.I'm sure you'll be our go to guy for euro swords and such.Dotanuki,a hopawhatacuse?

[tsafa]

Thanks for the Welcome guys. My fighting background includes Rapier in all its forms, single,dagger, buckler, cloak, and case. Case is my favorite. I Practice Longsword in the German Tradition at NYHFA. As you already know I fight with sword and shield in the SCA and have some experience with polearms and two-weapon forms there. So we have a lot of stuff we can talk about.

I was thinking about what Dotanuki said about WMA; "to put them on a level of organization/sophistication equal to the Oriental martial arts." I believe that is happening within the SCA. The SCA is an international organization with 50,000 members and an additional 60,000 non-member participants. When people think of the SCA, they usually only think of the rattan combat, but the SCA has a very historical and successful rapier program. They have recently introduced a sidesword program that would include longsword. In both instances steel blades are used with light calibrations. The SCA also includes archery, axe throwing, brewing, sewing, cooking, calligraphy and everything and anything else related to pre 17th cetury going back to ancient Greece.

One of the great things about the SCA is that it is a not-for-profit organization. That means the training is FREE. Some indoor sites may charge up to $5 towards the rent but all outdoor sites are completely free. They often have loaner equipment for beginners too. All the advance people have studied multiple fighting arts. So you have WMA people and people with Asian fighting backgrounds all contributing. The way it works is as you get involved, you form friendships with people and they direct your training. That does not only mean that they will train you only, they will use their contacts to put you in touch with the right poeple within the organization.

People withing the SCA at the higher levels tend to travel outside their own kingdoms to compete and train with other people. In that manor WestCost experience travels to the EastCost and vice versa. Canadians also tend to be big contributers.

I am also a member of the MSR which is a local organization in the NY area. It does all the things the SCA does. I am also am member of the New York Historical Fencing Society, which is a chapter of Christian Tobler's organization. Both of these other organizations are free or charge a nominal $5 fee. They show a great potential to grow into something much bigger.

I think that the Eurpean fighting systems will continue to gain popularity because of the not-for-profit organizations that have been already established. The low cost allows people to be active regardless of their economic situation. They can continue to train for almost no cost their entire lives. The way it often works out, when the guys get married, the wives get involved in some other aspect (weaving, cooking, archery, beeding, rapier, etc..). As the kids are growing up, they join the youth programs that use padded weapon. When they turn 18, they move to rattan or steel blunts. So as you can see there is a very solid structure in place.

If any one wants to find an SCA practice close to them they should go to WWW.SCA.org (http://www.SCA.org) and look. I will help you find a local practice too if you PM me. The other organizations I mentioned only are feasible to people in the NYC area. If anyone is interested in those, let me know.

[tsafa]

I put up a vid demonstrating edge alignment. If you want to achieve maximum power and speed you need to put you wrist behind each shot. If you do so, the edge will naturally line up. For this demo I used a single handed axe so the alignment is more visible. I was considering slowing down so that it is even more visible, but then it looks like I am placing the shots rather then throwing them naturally.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9kXlHFQUKk

[bobO]

WOW,tsafa ,that was awesome.You have been doing this awhile.I hope you post more of these.Can you go with me for my next IRS audit.I also watched the vid what not to do when fighting.I thought I knew all I needed to fight,boy was I wrong.This is a whole new world of carnage.Found out that the shire in allentown is nearest to me,but they don't do much as far as I can tell.Where do you get your gear?Thanks

[tsafa]

Glad you liked the videos, Bobo.

When it comes to armor, I tell people the same thing I was told when I started. Start cheap and upgrade as you get more and more into it.

Here are some pictures to my first armor which I made entirely myself. I cut up a car wash barrel with a jigsaw. I then drilled some holes and tied the plates together. All I had to do was borrow a helmet. This cost me almost nothing.

http://www.tsafa1.bravehost.com/armor/index.htm

This got me on the field so I could start the learning process. I learned was what changes I had to make to my armor. First thing I had to do was change the arms. Then the legs. Then the body. As long as you are fighting you will constantly be tweaking your armor. Putting it together yourself is not bad because you can make repairs just as easy.

What I am fighting in now is pretty cheap too. I built it with the knowledge gained while fighting in the first suit. I bought the starter set from Ascroft/Baker.

http://www.ashcraftbaker.com/ms%2012g%20helm%20beginer%20suit.htm

For under $300 you get knees, elbows, gorget, helmet, basket hilt and a shield hilt. You can then buy a side of leather form Springfield Leather to fill in the rest like I did. They have 14 oz low grade leather specifically for armor making. It costs about $90. You will also want a thiner strip of leather for making belt straps. That will be about $10. You may also want to buy some ink dye from them. Here is their link:

http://www.springfieldleather.com/catalog/uncut_leather/tooling_leather/saddle_skirting.asp

You will need some buckles: 10 one inch, 4 half inch, and 2 quarter inch. Best get some extra. Get cheap utility buckles from Tandy Leather:
http://www.tandyleather.com/products.asp?dept=48

You can pick up some rivets and washers from your local hardware store to put the armor together. I use Long Arrow Rematches and half inch washers. Also buy some closed cell foam to pad the inside of the armor.You can glue the cell foam directly with liquid nails. $2.50 a tube at hardware store. The legs are a high target area, so I wanted more padding there. I put a suede liner on the inside and riveted it in place. I put football pads inside that. I got the suede from Springfield leather for $15.

Here are some close up pictures of my armor:

http://mysite.verizon.net/tsafa1/armor/DSC00072.JPG

http://mysite.verizon.net/tsafa1/armor/DSC00076.JPG

http://mysite.verizon.net/tsafa1/armor/DSC00087.JPG

http://mysite.verizon.net/tsafa1/armor/DSC00083.JPG

http://mysite.verizon.net/tsafa1/armor/DSC200007.JPG

http://mysite.verizon.net/tsafa1/armor/bodyarmor.JPG

http://mysite.verizon.net/tsafa1/pell/leatherarmor-1.JPG

As you can imagine, this all took a lot of time. A lot of effort was wasted in trial and error too. If you are a busy person and have little time, it is more economical to just spend $1,500 to $2,000 on a ready suit. If I had know how long this would have taken me, I would have paid the money.

Here are some sites for anyone who would rather buy ready made stuff.

http://www.sussen.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/index.html
http://www.whitemountainarmoury.com/
http://www.ironmongerarmory.com/index.php
http://icefalcon.safeshopper.com/
http://darkvictory.com/html/catalog.html

There are hundreds of SCA armorers out there. Here is and website with an extended list:
http://www.the-exiles.org/Links-Vendors,%20Equip%20and%20Supp.htm

[bobO]

tsafa,great post as always.I looked into one armorer already,guy also makes armor for dogs,which would look great on my mastiff .the bitter half watched some vids with me,all she kept saying was ,that looks expensive.This is not going to happen over night,that's for sure.Again thanks for the info and great posts.p.s.the armor looks tough.

[tsafa]

I think you are talking about Pitbull Armory. I might want to get into his steel legs by next year.

http://www.pitbullarmory.com/legs.html

There are a number of steel options. Mild Steel rusts, so you will have to treat it somehow. Wax it if you want to maintain that steel look or paint it like I did. Stainless steel is lighter and rust is not an issue, but it is expensive. It is also a modern material. It looks great and is popular with a lot of good fighters. They have some other period choices like blackened steel. Its rust that is then oiled. The top layer of rust becomes a protective coat and the rust does not continue any further. I am not fully familiar with the process.

[bobO]

Yup that's the one.what do you think of there prices?As an aspiring spearman,what armor ie.type,would you suggest.How about helms,to me that looks to be the most important piece of kit.Ashcraftbaker looks good,but so does ironmonger.

[tsafa]

There is a $200 difference in price. Like I mentioned before, I think its best to start cheap. You might go to few wars and find that you loose interest, feel old injuries or you don't like the way you are being hit.

The helm is the most important piece of armor you will put on your body. It is the difference between life and death. I have a basic helm for Ascroft and I am considering buying the Early Sallet (stainless) form Iron Monger. I will decide after then next Pensic War in July. Depends if I see something I like better by then.

If you must wear sports glasses you will need a visor that lifts in order to get them on. Get something that has an open face with a bargrill for visibility. You will need to pad the inside and put a chin strap. It important that your nose can not touch the face grill if it is press on you. That will be tested at practice. Otherwise your nose can be broken. If you find the helmet rings like a bell when hit, you can coat the inside with a rubberizing spray. Only $7 at Autozone.

You should also know that the hits will feel different when you are just standing still and ask someone to do a test hit vs when you are fighting and your adrenalin is up.

[bobO]

My biggest problem is finding something close.My old lady parrots what you say,about me going off full bore.As for getting hit,I've been hit before no surprises there.http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff274/bokim09/bobspicks095.jpgTook out this brave knight,no problem

[tsafa]

haha, cute kid.

Yeah, take it easy on spending lots of money. I have not posted any of my Rapier fighting yet... you might decide you like that more... but not likely.

A lot of practices have loaner armor too that you can temporarily use. If you go to the practice you can also see what different people wear. You can question them about how comfortable their armor is, how well it protects, how it limits their motion. It makes no sense to spent upwards of $500 if you have never been to practice.

[bobO]

I think I'll Keep my SCA pursuits cerebral for now.But I got to say I'm pretty stoked about this,my first love is and has been JSA .I have friends who have studied for over 27 years and have never been in a fight(shows how good there style is).That's like learning to swim without ever getting in the water,now to there credit there is no playing with these guys,but still?So I'll go to a practice when I can, read your posts and PREPARE. MWUH HAAA HA P.S. I've always considered myself a saber kinda guy.

[tsafa]

There is a big difference between learning technique and learning to fight. Both are equally important and you can't obtain one from just studying the other. You can't learn either one well without the guidance of experienced people who can watch you and correct you.

Technique is about proper body mechanics. Fighting is about how you use that technique in relation to what the other person is doing. It won't do you much good if your distance, speed and timing is off key. Drilling creates some muscle memory to begin training. Your opponent will intentionally try to break your form down. It takes a higher lever of discipline to maintain that form when another person is actively working against you.

The place to start is technique. The question becomes, is it preferable to study the techniques of a whole fighting system and then begin sparring... or learn one or two techniques and just spar with that, picking up additional techniques as you go along.

I studied the entire system of German Longsword before I entered the SCA. My WMA group does drilling only, no sparring. I saw how utterly helpless I was the first time I tried to to fight with a two-handed sword in the SCA. My timing, distance and movement was way off. I was fought against someone who was only using two strikes against me. That is all he knew, but he knew how to use it with proper speed, distance and timing. I knew all the techniques of longsword, but I could not effectively fight. I still am working on my Longsword. It is a very hard form to actually fight with and not get killed or double kills.

In sword and shield I was trained differently. They showed me one shot and told me to keep my shield in front of me when throwing it. Drilled me a bit, then they sent me out to fight. Just one shot while keeping the shield in position. I learned to throw that one shot, with proper speed, power, timing. I learned how to move with my opponent. After two practices, they showed me another shot. They drilled me and then sent me out to fight with it. Even though my shots were good in drilling, it required a lot of practice to do it in a fight. Every time I add something new, some of the old stuff breaks down somewhere. So its a back and forth process of adding new stuff and maintaining old.

When it comes to learning a martial art, I have concluded that it is clearly better to learn technique and fighting together. I believe that going through a whole system and just learning the technique does not seem to accomplish much. The perfect example is what Bobo said about learning to swim without getting wet. How do you factor panic into that training when you hit the water for the first time.

[rick]

what do you think of buckler sheilds and where can I get a good one

[tsafa]

I buckler is used in a punch block method. I needs to be held out to block effectively. You bring it in to rest when not threatened. By being held out, it can block an area much greater then its own size.

I have one that I have made out of a plastic barrel. I use it for rapier fencing occasionally. For rapier fencing I have found it to way too slow as compared to a dagger. A buckler will typically weigh about 3 lbs. A dagger is less then 1 lb. It does not have as much offensive capability as a dagger. Historically you could punch someone in the face with it or break their wrist with the edge. Most rapier groups don't allow hitting with the buckler so it is hard to really grasp its full capabilities.

In rapier fighting the attacks are mostly with the point and any cuts are not too hard because the blade does not have too much meat on it. With a regular arming sword the impact of the cuts will be much greater. You will feel the impact in your wrist. A typical shield weighs at least 6 lbs and will absorb the impact more rather then transfer it you the wrist. My heater-shield weighs 8 lbs. Greek hoplons weighed about 15 and Romon scutoms weighed 22.

So once you come to terms with the wrist impact you now have to deal with the actual blocking. In rapier is a distance fight and range is the best defense for both fencers. In armored combat you will likely have to fight people with full size shields. They will not hesitate to close in on you. The odds are already in their favor. A bucklerman has to be quick on his feet and be able to fight running backwards. I know people who can do this well, I am not one of them.

A buckler is much easier to fake out. It has to move more to cover larger areas if he is forced to hold it close. Holding it out, makes it vulnerable to a shieldhook. Fighting with the buckler and shield close together covers more space and is very defensive, but also makes you vulnerable to a shield swipe that will pin down both in one movement.

The advantages of a buckler is greater mobility. Its lighter and you can dart in and out of range. You better use that advantage if you want to live. It gives your sword more mobility of range. You can not get shots that are difficult with a fullsize shield. Also the buckler gives better visibility. A fullsize shield creates a large blindspot. Experienced people know where it is and will attack you out of there.

So in summery, the buckler is a very unique fighting style. You can not just switch from a shield to a buckler and expect to be able to defend yourself. It is a different weapon form that requires a longterm commitment to learn.

Here is a cheap buckler:
http://www.bladematrix.tv/index.asp?PageAction=PRODSEARCH&txtSearch=buckler&btnSearch=GO&Page=1

[rick]

thanx tsafa that was good ........ I like the buckler that windless puts out it's 16" across ...

[tsafa]

When it comes fighting with buckler ask yourself how good are you at hitting a baseball with a bat against a good pitcher who is really trying to strike you out. A professional pitcher is pitching at an avg 90 mph. A sword tip is coming in at about 160 to 180 mph from your average fighter. There are low-rising shots and other misdirections you have to deal with. With a fullsize shield you only need worry about the 20% of your body not covered by the shield. You know they are either going to your head or leg if you keep good form.

One issue here is how well do you see. Not in terms of 20/20 vision. How many frames per second can you brain process. When a professional baseball player looks at an incoming pitch, he sees a lot more of it then the average person. His natural ability has allowed him to progress to that level. Some people have a real natural ability here that exceeds the average. This is a genetic advantage like arm-reach. You can't change this much. You have to work with what you have. Some weapons are better suited to people then others.

[bobO]

Hmnn..I find this fighting with sword AND shield both novel and intriguing.:-?

[rick]

It's all fun and games ..... till some one hits you with a shield ....... owey

[tsafa]

That is a very good discussion topic... Shield bashing, its virtues and faults.

It is not legal in the SCA. It can be dangerous in an uncontrolled manor. The reason being that all striking surfaces have to be a minimum 1.25 in diameter and made of rattan. The edge of my shield is thin enough so that I could possibly get it into a face-grill and poke an eye. The required edging on shields often wears away exposing the steel edge. With the mass of the shield and the thin edge, there would be ribs and other bones breaking. The new rules do allow a person to place the shield on someones body and manipulate them. Not too many people like them. Just yesterday my shield edge accidentally got into someones basket hilt and bruised their finger. If I had applied force I might have broken his finger.

That's SCA, now lets talk historical shield bashing. No doubt it was used often. I do believe that a less experienced swordman would be more likely to use a shield bash then a good one. Once you start using you shield offensively it become like any other weapon to be blocked with your own shield. The shield is larger and moves slower in offensive actions and can be blocked more easily then a sword. A shield bash is usually done with the edge of your shield. That means you open you self up BIGTIME. A good swordman will keep his fullsize shield close to his body. If someone strikes him with the shield-edge, he will block it with the face of his shield and gut the person with his sword. He may have to block the shieldbash with his shield and then block an almost simultaneous sword strike with his sword. All find and good, but now the opponent is likely trapped with his shield in an open position and is at a disadvantage to continue fighting.

In summery... a trained swordman can do a lot more harm with his sword then his shield. Likewise, his shield does a better job of blocking then anything else.

[rick]

some times you just see that opening and have to take ........ it works not every time but once in a while..........

[jwilliams]

but once is all it takes to die.

[bobO]

Yup, it's a pretty harsh learning curve!But like fighter pilots if you survive the first couple battles,your chances for victory go way up.

[rick]

thats why you only use a shield bash when the perfect opening apeers ........
when your enemy is ocupied with your primary weapon then use a short well timed and aimed strike to offset the enemys balance imedately follow with a strike of your own to finish the job..

[Mako]

but once is all it takes to die.
Which begs the question...
Why did 'kamikaze pilots wear goggles? B-)

[rick]

so the could see the side of the ship coming

[tsafa]

Normally when a right handed fighter fights another right-handed fighter with sword and shield, each man's sword match's up against the other mans shield. In the case of off-handed fighters, a righty against a lefty, the two shields will match up and the two swords will match up on the same side. This changes the fight considerably.

Righty against righty is the same fight as lefty against lefty. It is only with lefty against righty that things change. For this reason, I will not refer to the matter as an issue of left handed or right handed, but rather as off-handed or like-handed in the case of righty vs righty (and lefty against lefty).

My primary form is sword and shield. I fight both right handed and left handed in the SCA, MSR and in unofficial circles with less restricted rules. I also fence rapier both case and with dagger.

In the case of rapier, longsword, polearm, or single sword were no shield is involved fighting off-handed presents little difference. With rapier dagger there is some issue because you can not comfortably block the rapier with you dagger. For off-handed fighter is has to cross over to the other side to offer defensive assistance. A rapier fight between off-handed fighters will resemble more of a single rapier fight. The daggers will be largely out of play unless they cross them over their rapier or fight in an extreme refused guard where the dagger is out in front of the tip of the rapier. In any case the off-handed opponents will be use to fighting single and will not have trouble adjusting. Crossing your blades is also very risky and should be avoided.

When fighting sword and shield, with a heater size shield, the fighting style changes significantly from like-handed to off-handed fights. In a like-handed fight, the shield is held more open so it covers the the side and front partially. It only need cover half your chest. The sword side of you chest will be out of reach from the other fighter. There is an advanced shot that can hit that opening, but that is the exception. The front foot is always pointing at your opponent or the direction you plan to move in. The back foot among like handed fighter will set further back and to the side for balance. The angle can be anywhere from a 90 degree "L" to 45 degrees.

In an off-handed fight, the first thing that must change is the foot-placement. The back foot must be at a "T" directly behind your front foot. This will shift the shield in front of you body. An off-handed fighter presents little threat to the shield side of your body. His sword arm can't reach you. You sword side is wide open. He can throw wraps all day at your sword side from behind his shield. You can do the same to him if he does not bring his shield over. You have to tilt you body so you shield is flat in front you, not off to the side. Putting one leg behind the other and bringing your shield arm over, will do this. You will likely also have to use sword blocks to defend against deep wraps.

The shield naturally hinders some of your offensive capabilities as well as you visibility. The bigger the shield, the more defense you have but the more your visibility and range of attack will be hindered. Moving the shield across you body as I mentioned before will hinder you even more. Not a problem since both fighters are limited in a similar way. It is very hard to throw an on-side cut from the position I mentioned. If you try to throw an on-side cut, you will naturally rotate you body, move your shield and expose yourself. On-sides are still possible if you raise you hand up high and strike over you shield but it is awkward. Your main offense is an off-side cut that comes over your shield to his head (from the shield side) or an on-side wrap to his head or body. The wrap is an on-side cut where you rotate the wrist and strike with the false edge. The dynamics of this cut allow you to bend you arm at the elbow around your shield (and his) to get to your opponent. You will not see you target, you have to anticipate where your target is based on what you can see.

So in summery when off-handed fighters face off against each other, they must address that fact that their shield leaves a huge gap open if they hold it off to the side. They must compensate with a combination of moving the shield over and using sword blocks.

[bobO]

I think it was over at SBG,They showed some old wood block prints of euro duels to the death.On one print they show one guy kicking the right edge of the other guys shield then thursting to the throat.I liked that move ,ever hear of such a thing? Also what's a case.

[tsafa]

I think it was over at SBG,They showed some old wood block prints of euro duels to the death.On one print they show one guy kicking the right edge of the other guys shield then thursting to the throat.I liked that move ,ever hear of such a thing? Also what's a case.

"Case" is a rapier fighting style where you use two rapiers simultaneously, one in each hand. It was called case because it was not common to walk around with two rapiers hanging at the hip. A pair of rapiers were carried in a case. I have been told case was not a very common fighting form historically. The average renaissance man did not invest the time to learn to fight equally well with both hands. Generally if someone trained to fight will both hands they were a pro. They did nothing else except train and hire themselves out to feuding families.

I'm not sure which video you are talking about at SBG. I think you might be talking about the viking style round shields with center grips. The center grip makes a shield very unstable and I don't fight with such a shield for that purpose. Consider a case where I have a shield strapped at two points on my forearm and the other person has a center grip. I can hit his shield-edge and cause it to flip but he can't do the same to me. However, don't take what I tell you as fact that one grip style is better then another. Both styles were used historically, and both are used in the SCA today. So it is a matter of making it work. Some people swear by center grips. One of the people who trains me in sword & shield told me that you can fight with anything, if you use it right.

[bobO]

Thank you tsafa,I always learn something from each and every one of your posts.Were very lucky to have you on board !The item in question was a series of prints not vids,it might have been posted on SFI,You would like them,now I just gotta find them again.

[tsafa]

Thanks for the kind words Bobo. If you come across the prints, send me a link.

[tsafa]

This week I picked a video from the end of the night. We are both exhausted after 2 hours of fighting. I thought that the sword work might be more visible because we are a little slower. Around 3:05 you see me land two shots right in front of the camera. He felt safe because I was out of range. I then lunged forward and slapped down two. Mind you, this guy would normally beat me, he went into this fight more tired then me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMopZtqB7Ww