Wood for Tsuka

[bobO]

Does any one know if hard woods are suitable for tsuka.I have some mahogany and some type of brazilian hardwood,thats very heavy,I think it would work,I like the weight.Justice ?

[Justice]

Poplar is probably the best wood to use other than traditional honoki wood. The wood can't be too hard, the tsuka has to be able to absorb some shock. It can't be too soft either, or it will break. It's also cheap and widely available.

Also, some hardwoods have tannic acids in them, and no matter how hard you cure them it would be bad for the sword. Poplar is a good acid free, salt free wood.

[bobO]

THANK YOU ,Justice.So poplar it is.I should have no problem getting that.O-kay poplar isn't as popular as I thought.went to three lumber yards,no one has any.Last place the guy told me to go to the Home depot,go figure.

[rick]

Is poplar good for the saya too?

[goose710]

Hey bob-o
you can get honoko wood from Fred Lohman for tuska and saya. honoko is the wood of choice
goose710
ps also other places but i'm working like a dog today and have no time to bring up link but i got it

[bobO]

Goose I'm on it.But shopping at Lohman"s gives me the willy's.I was talking to a native here who is into making his own bows.He said I should go in the woods and cut down a sapling.Poplar that is.

[goose710]

Bob-o
Honoko is dried for years in the attic's of the wood carvers, you wouldn't get to make your tuska for that amount of time! it must be dry and salt free.or the blade handle will suffer.
goose710

[Taygrd]

Hello BobO
Been following the post and might add my perspective - and it just my opinion. If I had to replace a tsuka on a Japanese made sword that was wholly constructed in Japan I would definately replace the tsuka with honoko. That is the purest and traditionalist comming out in me. For any other sword that I cut with poplar is just fine. I have been using it in my weapons and there are other makers that do the same. It does kind of take the magic out of it when you go into Home Depot and ask some kid where the poplar is. Just my opinion, however you know what they say about opinions.....

[rick]

hi..its me ...new guy ..... what about the saya is poplar good

[bobO]

It does kind of take the magic out of it when you go into Home Depot and ask some kid where the poplar is,said Taygrd =PWent to another lumber yard asked the guys there,"what do you need it for" Asked the kid; A sword handle.."said I; a what".. said he,The other kid just goes "wow".No poplar.:-<This is what I'm going to do.I'm going to order the least amount of furniture grade poplar(if there is such a thing?)super clear,you get the idea,that I can.What would be the minimum dimensions to get,ie.width&thickness.Thanks bobO

[jwilliams]

hi..its me ...new guy ..... what about the saya is poplar good

New guy? 200 posts? Rick I think for a saya poplar would probably be ok, but Ryumon makes one out of mahogany so that might be more authentic, I'm with goose and Taygrd, the closer you can get to what was original is better, my opinion. You need to see what kind of oils,acids and salts are in the wood, they can really damage a high carbon blade.

[rick]

thats why I'm asking ...... I don't know

[Mako]

Borrowed from a Nihonto Forum.;)

The compatible wood subject pops up on occasion. One of the things most folks overlook or don't realize is that Honoki (Magnonila Obivata, or Magnolia Hypoleuca) has a natural wax in it's structure. Using a bit of sandpaper on a piece of Honoki almost immediately clogs the paper. This makes the wood very ammenable for protecting the sword from humidity as well as a very good base for lacquerwork. The quality of the wood also depends on the particular region of Japan it was harvested because this dictates density and color as well. Some Honoki looks very white while others have a green cast to them. Many might be familiar with the very attractive golden brown "tiger stripes" that some Honoki can have which have a very opalescent shimmer to them when finished correctly by the sayashi. One will see these most generally on excellent shirasaya with qualitative blades. Obviously the lesser quality ones are used for lacquerwork (or the liners of steel/aluminum gunto saya) as the grain won't be visable anyway. As was mentioned above, Honoki is cured for many years to provide stability and remove excess moisture from the structure. The stability issue is obviously another important consideration for accurate fitting of the blade. If it warps the blade will rub or not fit at all. Kiln dried woods can be more suceptable to this, depending on how fresh from the kiln they are.

There are many considerations for using wood for direct contact with the sword blade of which many harder structured woods just aren't suitable. Woods like Maple, Walnut, Cherry and other very durable woods are difficult to carve and because of their dense structure are very rough on the finish of the sword, and they are often very irregular in grain. Oak is straighter, but is also very hard and has an open grain structure that traps crud. Any woods like this are likely to abrade the polish and also be very noisey on the draw. Carving them accurately is difficult so rattling is easy to introduce. Exotics woods can have natural chemistry that protects them from environmental threats such as pests that make them highly corrosive to steel, so yet another issue to watch out for. I have seen period examples of swords using exotic woods on saya for their beauty. One example was a Shikkake Norinaga tanto with a lovely wood (supposedly now extinct) from the area of Vietnam that looks like a cross between ironwood and rosewood. However it was an "irekozaya" which incorporates a removeable sleeve of Honoki to protect the blade from contact of the extremely hard wood. When pulled out it was hinged to easily split apart for cleaning, and a poem was written upon the outside of the sleeve. I've also seen the same thing done with saya of extremely high quality lacquerwork that allows the saya to be cleaned easily to preserve the lacquer work which would otherwise be destroyed or discarded when the saya interior became too dirty to use.

Honoki of any quality is getting harder to obtain and for a lot of swords including swords for practitioners, contemporary works, and lower quality antique swords using good stock is a bit of a waste of the materials. In these cases, Alder is about the best comparable stock we have here in the US for sword mountings I have found. It is closegrained, fairly dense, strong, and carvable. Eventhough it's all pretty much kiln dried, it's generally stable enough off the rack as well. Clear stock is getting harder to find though as with all decent woods. Basswood works, but it is very very soft and absorbs a ton of oil, so over oiling could exacerbate interior swelling/pinching of the sword blade. I'd vote against that one. It also is very soft, and will dent practically looking at it. Poplar (or American Tulipwood) is decent strenght, good for carving, and lower in shrikage than Alder or Basswood. It's color is also widely varied in whites, yellow, green, and brown, and has black spots, green areas, so for exposed wood it wouldn't look nice, but lacquered over no problem. It is light though and will dent easier than Alder, but not as easily as Bass.

In the US, Yellow Cucumber Tree (Magnolia Acuminata) might be one to look at, though I've never personally used it. It has properties better than Alder in most catagories and is fairly plentiful on the east coast. It is close to all specs between Alder, Poplar (Tulipwood), and although I don't have written specs on Honoki, likely is very similar there by default of species.

Hope this helps.

[bobO]

You da the man Mako,Thanks a bunch.At lohams they sell wood for saya but not for tsuka(far as I can tell)can I use that?It's already roughed out and pre split.

[Mako]

You da the man Mako,Thanks a bunch.At lohams they sell wood for saya but not for tsuka(far as I can tell)can I use that?It's already roughed out and pre split.
That post was in reply to someone from the USA who wanted to know what wood is suitable for both saya and tsuka and replied to by Ted Tenold of 'Legacy Arts'.;)

[rick]

I think mahogany with a dark stain and high gloss finish wold look really cool

[Mako]

I think mahogany with a dark stain and high gloss finish wold look really cool
You can stain almost any wood to a dark Mahogany and apply a high gloss finish and it's been stated earlier in this thread...Mahogany is unsuitable.:-<

[rick]

what about a vaneer of a more exotic wood .....(one that is harmful to steel)

[Mako]

what about a vaneer of a more exotic wood .....(one that is harmful to steel)
On a Tsuka? :-/

[bobO]

If I go to the lumber yard and special order some grade A poplar,what would be them minimum dimensions as far as width and thickness be ? Thanks bobO

[rick]

no mako the saya.....vaneer the saya in exotic hard wood

[goose710]

Bob-o
i don't know how to use this site but it has everything you may need, handle pre formed, wood for saya's the whole nine yards, but how to use it ????? i'm stumped

http://www.n-p-s.net/tuba102.htm
you can judge the size you need by they're dimentions

they have REALLY nice seppa!!!!! it's where i got my idea for mine.
goose710

[bobO]

Goose,that's great ,Just gotta fiqure how to babblefish it.Did you see the deal for cleaning the inside of the saya,Bet you good make one of them?Thanks!!Oh Yeah,Goose this is the way to go for sure!Can anyone translate this.I mean 1400 yen that's great!

[rick]

~X(my computer cant translate

[jwilliams]

bobO if you figure out how to babblefish it let us know, there are some nice tools on that site. Did you see the plane and wood carving tools when you click on the characters by the wood for the saya?

[Brian Brazier]

Nihonzashi has Honoki Saya blanks, http://nihonzashi.com/supplies.htm (3/4 of the way down the page) they are currently out of stock, but I'm sure if you give them a call they can tell you when they will have more in.

[rick]

thats cool

[bobO]

Brian,Thanks,I like this site for there horn.It's funny that I can find saya blanks ,but couldn't find blanks for tsuka!Cause now with Gooses(or is that geese)help we have solved that problem.If I have to take the laptop to the Sushi bar I will.ie.To translate the site.

[goose710]

Bob-o
just a thought, Cheness has tsuka's aready made up you could unwrap it and use the wood and same' cheap too $25.00 approximately
goose710

[bobO]

Goose great idea,if nothing else that would be a great way to practice,but I still like that Japanese site.J,still haven't fiqured out babble fish but I'm working on it.

[Taygrd]

Goose and Brian, those are great sites that I have never run across before!!! I think I will spend some quality time there. The green ito on the one site kind of freaked me out :-O.
Rick, I use poplar for sayas since it is easy to work and readily available. The main drawback is that the wood grain will show through most stains. I have a non-traditional ~X((nobody freak out now) way to build them. I use a sealer such as kilz then auto body paint. The auto paint has a hardner and make the saya more resilant. Elmers wood glue works great to hold it together. The rice glue is great but my wife does not like me messing up her kitchen:).
If I had the money and the time I would do everything as traditional as I could, but I don't.
Bob and Goose, that Cheness idea is a good one. One question I have and I know this is the place to answer it. If the tsuka does not fit the nakago exactly will double pegs work to hold it securely? Part two of question- If you do peg it twice will the gap between the nakago and tsuka cause stress and possibly fracture the wood?:-? Any ideas? Thanks.

[bobO]

Taygrd,I'm Freaking out man!Just kidding,The quick answer is NO.For something as simple as all this is,every thing must be tight and right.They had a big discussion on just this over at SFI,worth looking into.You really don't want to worry to much about tradition until you get into high end swords,your idea's sound great.I think I'll have questions myself about mekugi when the time comes.

[Taygrd]

Thanks bobO,I was thinking about swapping some tsukas and wanted to be lazy-nixed that idea and saved me some grief. As far as mekugi go I saw one that was made out of horn-water buffalo I think- how good are they?

[bobO]

Good question,I don't know,but I would think that if it was Superior,we would see it as the norm.I would think it to brittle.Some things you just don't want to dick with.P.S.I'm assuming you will be dealing death to various sundry items.ie,pool noodles,bottles the lurking pumpkin,etc.If your just gonna hang it on the wall your own talents and creativity are your only limits.You could send pic's and updates as you progress.I'm sure everyone would be interested.p.s.s.Justice would be the guy to answer hese questions with any surety.Plus alot of guys use Elmer's wood glue,just never use Gorilla glue as it foams up as part of the drying process.

[Taygrd]

Good point about it being brittle. You have been asking for pictures. I have not got the ito for the Musashi katana yet so it is still in the works. Her is a pic of the last tanto I made. Not true to form since it does not have a habaki or menuki. I regret not taking the time to put a habaki on it. The neji menuki I made out of stainless and a garnet. This saya is poplar as well as the tsuka that has a full same wrap. Water buffalo on both ends and the kurikata is bone. The blade is 1095 tool steel forged not folded with a clay tempered notare hamon. My lovely and talented wife made the padded bag. Hope this will tide you over.http://www.geocities.com/taylorhandmadeknives/tanto3.jpg

[rick]

do you sell custom swords taygrd

[Taygrd]

Hi Rick,
I have not sold any of my blades in awhile. I don't have the time to do custom orders anymore. I make tanto and wakizashi only because I do not have a big enough quench tank for katana. Besides my blades pale in comparison to some of the ones I have seen posted here. If I ever get back to selling them I will give you a holler.

[rick]

how about just the fittings for a sword

[goose710]

Taygrd
that tanto is sweet! non traditional is OK it's personal preference is all. I've got a tanto in the works , right now it's a semiformed billit of steel( i don't get much forge time). but i do things slow. I was thinking of doing a same' wrap like yours on the handle this time. how hard is that stuff to work with? is it supple? or stiff, do you wet it ? or apply dry? Oweing to the cost of same' i'm gonna go a bit slow don't want to blow a bengimin franklin if it don't work out.
Also i love the gem stone you put on the menuki, i also have a love of stones and have a star ruby i found and had polished and set. That stone reminds me of it. Way Cool!
goose710

[Taygrd]

Thanks goose you are very kind. The same is easy to work with-sort of. I wet it and applied it to the tsuka to dry. It forms like rawhide or leather and once it is dry it is hard. Pretty forgiving to work with and it can be rewet several times till you are happy with the fit. I wrapped the handle then ground it down to fit. Try this source for same.
http://www.japaneseswordsltd.com/frames.html - under restore and repair
Best prices I have found and I hope Santa is bringing some more. Would love to do more folding or damascus but it takes a long time with a 8lb sledge and my wife will not let me use the 3 and 7 year old for hammermen.
Rick ,I have done some furnishings in bronze nothing fancy however. If I make some more up I will do a few spares an see if anyone wants them. Lately I have been buying them since the blades are time consuming. Also have used horn as well- easy to work.

[rick]

problem is I don't know how I need to learn

[Taygrd]

One of the best ways to learn is trial and error. You never really stop learning so read everything you can about the topic. The Internet is great for info as long as you screen out the bad info.

BobO- sorry I digressed on your thread--I don't think I have A.D.D. OH LOOK A SQUIRREL.......................................... ..........................

[bobO]

Well let me first say what a beautiful tanto,love the Hamon.You and Goose are going to get along like a house on fire.Then I'd like to say this=))=)). No worry's.

[goose710]

bob-o
I noticed cheness had extra saya's too! while they may/or may not fit a sword you own, you , or anyone could practice lets say rattan wrapping, same application,or any such trial and error projects without spending a fortune only to find you're all thumbs like me, or your idea just won't work!
goose710

[bobO]

I've thought of this Goose.I really would like to try my hand at the rattan wrapping.I want to do my zatoichi,but don't want to srew it up.Just got the hamon looking nice.

[Taygrd]

BobO and Goose, If you ever decide to try your hand at same application or rattan on a saya get some pictures. I would like to see how it's done.

Goose- Please keep me up to date on the tanto you are building. I always try to learn how other people make them and pick up a few hints -if you do not mind. I still consider myself a caveman blade maker.

I also wanted to tell you that that is a beautiful katana that Lohman finished for you. =P~ I have Katana envy. Everything on that koshira flows great together. I was a little scared to post anything on that "Its Done" thread being a new guy and all.:-<

[goose710]

Taygrd
Thank you for the kind words, yes i think it came together well. gave it alot of thought as to how it might look when done. (asked my wife for her input too!) gotta keep em happy.
Don't be ascared to post dude, i'm a new guy too.
As for the new tanto i'm going up to my country estate( read shack) to work on it this week-end should have some pic's wednesday or so. truth be told i'm just a hack at this stuff, i trial and error it. i keep what works and discard what don't. i've some minor suggsesses, and many failures. but i enjoy keepin busy so it don't really matter.
I always enjoy talking to other people that have an interest same as me.
goose710

[bobO]

Hey guys where all new,I'm just a compulsive poster.Taygrd,I'm going to try the rattan thing,but the same is out of my league.You and Goose are to humble,both of you do awesome work.My problem is I was taught RESPECT THE SWORD,so now I get nervous just cleaning the damn things.And goose is the tanto pointy yet.LOL

[Dotanuki]

Taygrd, I like the idea of using your kids as hammerers [Dad, this is hard!! can I stop now?]
I really enjoy reading these Posts, there are a lot of people tinkering around out there that don't like to admit it.[embarrassed?] You guys are constantly giving me new ideas [now if I could just follow through on them]

[Taygrd]

Taygrd, I like the idea of using your kids as hammerers [Dad, this is hard!! can I stop now?]

I had it all worked out. The would have t-shirts that said "sakite 1" and "sakite 2", then my wife asked what the three year old was doing with the hammer=)).

[bobO]

You know women have a way of doing that.Start to have a little fun...wait didn't Jason just get engaged?Yeah,those women,just gotta love dos dames.

[Jason Moore]

Fortunately for me, my woman is all about having fun. B-)