A Book of Five Rings

[alant]

I've been told to read "A Book of Five Rings" (Go Rin No Sho) by Miyamoto Musashi and will have to get a copy. Barnes and Noble is supposed to carry it.

[Jason Moore]

I've been told to read "A Book of Five Rings" (Go Rin No Sho) by Miyamoto Musashi and will have to get a copy. Barnes and Noble is supposed to carry it.

Thats where I got mine from!

[Kissaki]

Thats where I got mine from!
I got the one with a whole crap load of other Musashi info in it as well as Go Rin No Sho. (It's like 2 inches thick) Unnesessary, but still a good buy B-)

[Tony Ferrill]

I read the novel"Musashi" before I read the book he wrote on strategy;I am glad I did so-knowing much of the novel would be fictional,because it gave my linear-thinking Western mind a point of reference.These two works actually sent me to work again as a student of karate and piqued my interest in the sword.Also see Yagyu Munenori,"The Life Giving Sword",and Takuan Soho,"The Unfettered Mind".
All these works have helped me understand living in the moment a little bit better,and helped me practice this a little longer every day....
Tony

[alant]

I'm reading this short book now. It's one that can be read at several levels, so this probably won't be the only time I read it.

[Dotanuki]

Personally, I have always been surprised at the popularity of this book. Many of descriptions are in the abstract [deep abstract] and usually only advanced students of the sword arts have an inkling of what he is talking about.
Yes, I know many businessmen read this book on strategy, but I believe this only goes to prove the book is being misinterperated on many levels.
I have always found it interesting that very few people have actually seen Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu in action [you won't find much authentic, on You Tube] so it always seemed to me it was much like reading about Micheangelo or Picasso paintings without seeing their work.
I hope this doesn't come across as elitist because it wasn't meant to be, but I would like to hear other people's opinion on the subject.


Talking about art is like dancing about architecture - David Bowie

[RedZorak]

I was amazed at it's popularity as well, but I'm sure there are some things that can still be pulled from it even if you aren't a martial artist of any kind. It is probably more useful for those who study the arts, Niten Ichi especially, than simple businessmen, but if people enjoy reading it, then I say let them. Maybe they will stop thinking that all of us sword nuts are crazy :)

[bobO]

I think dotanuki hit the nail on the head,first you have to have some background in JSA,then you should brush up on general Japanese culture of the period when this was written.Then you gotta study Shintoism also Zen,that should keep you busy for a year at least,then you read five rings and study it well.Nothing to it.~X(

[Dotanuki]

Independent Thought:-?

I have always been amused by this book, not by it's content, but by the response it illicits. Because we are told this is bible on Japanese swordsmanship, we automatically assume it is so. So because many don't really understand what he is saying [Musashi] we assume it must be true.
Especially JSA practicioners and Koryu enthusiasts, in the Wind book, Musashi critisizes every sword style of the day, saying his style is superior to anything out there. So if you are a practicioner of anything but Niten Ichi Ryu and you agree with Musashi, you are saying your sword style is ****. [see what I am getting at] I remember years ago seeing an essay by the late Don Draeger [Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu] that was highly critical of the Gorin no Sho, which it should have been, seeing his was one of the styles, he [Musashi] was critisizing.
What I am saying, in the Martial Arts as in life, form your own opinions. Don't let current trends dictate your thoughts. Think, analyze and study, form your own views, this is the message the Gorin no Sho was trying to get across.
BTW, personally I liked the book myself.

[bobO]

Now it's been over 20 years since I've read this book, so bear with me but didn't he save most of his outright scorn for the 1 inch school.You know ,there swords were one inch longer then others?what I did like was his thoughts on discerning your opponents spirit and when to strike. Be like water my friend.

[moyeram@msn.com]

"A Book of Five Rings" (Go Rin No Sho) by Miyamoto Musashi should be read many time not just once. This is book on strategy and understanding the world around you. I learn more each time I read it. You must read if again and again to fully understand what he means. My library has a hard copy and a small paper back copy that you can carry around to read.

This is book is more than just how to cut with a sword. It tells when, where and how to use various techniques and the world around you to accomplish your task. However, this strategy in this book can be used in Business, in home life, in the martial arts and many other places.

If you are not a martial arts like myself it may be hard for you to understand this book and it is far from fiction. Open your mind and apply what Musashi recorded to the world around you!

Hope this helps to understand the book that can be obtained at most martial arts stores.

[jwilliams]

I hesitate to say much about this and I hope I don't sound stupid or offend anyone because I am new to this area of study. I have read the Book of Five Rings (and I agree it needs to be read more than once to be useful) and as I was reading it I felt that it was pretty egotistical. It seems to me that one of the facets of Bushido is respect for those that came before and passed along their knowledge so that others could grow from it and Musashi claimed to have done almost everything on his own. I know he has been called the best swordsman but I think he was doing alot of the talking. I am currently reading a book called the Life Giving Sword by Yagyu Munenori who was a contemporary of Musashi but they never met in a sword fight, and his book embodies more of the spirit of Bushido as I understand it. The Life Giving Sword is that it is sometimes necessary to kill one evil man so that thousands will live. Both books, that I have were translated by William Scott Wilson and are worth studying. I agree with Dotanuki, study it all, form your own opinion and take what is useful to you.

[Dotanuki]

J,
Never be hesitant about expressing your opinion on this Forum, it is always welcome. I purposely started this thread trying to generate a discussion on this book. I too have read this book many times, the first time over thirty years ago. Has it's meaning changed to me? Most definitely so.
Moyeram, please don't take this the wrong way, but every time I hear someone say how great this book is, they give the same stock description you just did. Which I could have read off the book jacket.
In this book Musashi speaks in abstact terms many times [Japanese abstact] which is very difficult for many westerners to understand [yes, even trained martial artists]. How can you even pretend to understand what he is talking about, if you have never even seen his sword techniques in action [BTW, I have]
In the introduction Musashi states;
"Since then I have lived without following no particular Way, Thus with the virtue of strategy I practise many arts and abilities-all things with no teacher."
Musashi actually trained with many famous individuals {Takuan,etc.]. He was far from being self taught [all samurai children were taught basics, think to scenes in "The Last Samurai"]. Musashi held in contempt all the major styles of the day, with their elitism and love for lineage over skill. This was a deliberate insult to all the major sword schools of the day, which I am sure they got. I think it is funny that after all these centuries if Musashi came back today, he would find things haven't changed much.

Way = Michi/Do - path or way [very heavy concept in martial arts and Zen]

Strategy = Hyoho/Heiho - Japanese concept of strategy [ different than ours, almost, if not spiritual]

[jwilliams]

It could be said that Takuan was the most influential swordsman of his day since he influenced both Musashi and Munenori as both attribute many things to him.

[RedZorak]

Takuan... was a buddist monk/priest. I don't think he was a swordsman, but I'm sure he could have been a good one if he was;)

But influencial he was!

[jwilliams]

In the Five Rings it says that Takuan came from a Samurai family so that it is likely that he was also a swordsman or at least had considerable knowledge of swordsmanship.

[bobO]

There are many story's of samurai going to monks for instuction.

[RedZorak]

There are lots of stories about samurai who retired to being monks who in turn instruct young samurai (like Tsunetomo Yamamoto), but I've never heard anything about Takuan being a swordsman himself... and remember that samurai philosophy is deeply rooted in Zen Buddism, so they didn't just go to them for help with wielding a sword. Where in the Book of Five Rings does it say that Takuan came from a samurai family?

[jwilliams]

I'm sorry, I need to correct that, it is in the foreword of "The Life Giving Sword" and it talks about Takuan and Musashi meeting. The foreword also mentions a book on swordsmanship written by Zen priest Takuan Soho called "The Mysterious Record of Unmoving Wisdom" (Fudochi Shinmyoroku) written around 1632.

[bobO]

J,This may be a little off topic,but another good book to help you understand the samurai mindset would be,The sword off no abode,by D.T. Suzuki.Written by a modern zen master,It try's to explain how you can strike down your enemy and still be a good Buddhist.

[Dotanuki]

Except from Musashi quote;

Thus with the virtue of strategy I practice many arts and abilities-all things with no teacher.

Read this statement carefully, as it does not just apply to the sword. Nowhere did I say that Musashi was taught swordsmanship by Takuan, although like j, I believe Takaun was a Sohei [warrior monk].
It is because this statement does not refer to just swordsmanship, that further reinforces my belief that this statement was an attack/insult to the established sword schools of the day [and their love for lineage]
Many people today read this statement and use it for their justification of self teaching [hey, Musashi taught himself]. Which is a terrible misunderstanding and very far from the truth.
This is why I like discussions on this book, as there are many statements I believe are taken the wrong way.
moyeram states this strategy can help you in the business world, it would help if he showed references and explained his interpertation.
alant says his instructor told him to read this book. Why? Was he Quized? Did his instructor ask him if he had any questions? Did he have any questions, but was to afraid to ask because he might appear stupid? [like anyone who read this for the first time would understand it]
Just by reading j's,Redzorak and bobo responses, shows me they are more than just casual martial artists, and gives me an increased respect for them.

[moyeram@msn.com]

"this strategy can help you in the business world, it would help if he showed references and explained his interpertation."
Many Post-Secondary Schools business management classes in the USA, Japan and other countries refer this and sometimes Quiz the student on what they think it means since Japan does use it as a guide for business world.

If you want a example look around you. Cars from Japan were at one time considered junk!!! Now the business men did not use a sword but they did use our knowledge against us by hiring the best business mind in the USA to help setup not only the auto industry but others. However, to apply a few parts of the strategy from the Musashi book, after Japan developed a quality auto product that could compete with the USA they crossed the Ford or stream or into the USA auto market, and with the SUN coming over there right shoulder or excellent advertisement and customer relations that we were blinded by, Japan cut off the auto industries head or at least caused a lot of damage and is now the number one car maker in the USA ahead of GM.

Hope you can uderstand this one example since I have to go now.

Also, I have been training in Karate Do going on 40 years and trained with some of the best karate master the world has to offer. They read this book many time and departed their views of the book to me and hopefully by reading it more myself I will become more like them for seeing and understanding all. Remember in the martial arts you pull energy, knowledge and other attributes from the world around if you know how. Read the book again.

[Dotanuki]

moyeram.
That was an interesting interpertation, thank you for your response.
I am not trying to aggravate a response, rather stimulate one [although the appearance may appear similar]
What is technique, without application?
What are words, without thought?
If we read something without thought and reflections, the words remain hollow.
How many times have people told you they read this book? Then tell you how great it was? But when you press them for an explanation it seems as though they were just trying to impress or just thought it was because eveybody else said so. [currently in vogue]. I am trying to get people to think, examine and analyze for themselves, develop true opinions and thoughts, not just blindly follow. No master can grant you enlightenment, you have to find it for yourself.

[jwilliams]

Thank you bobO I will try to find that book and thank you Dotanuki, that was a high compliment.

[bobO]

I am humble in the face of such praise.it did make me think back,I walked into my first kwoon 34 years ago.That's a sobering thought.Also I have got to read 5 rings again.Just to see how it strikes me at this stage of my life.

[goose710]

A little late to this thread, but after reading a bit bob-0's statment of "gotta read it again,at this stage in my life" that IS a telling remark!
the fluidity of life experences, tend to color our outlooks, therefore at different stages in our life the same experence will and (at least to me) does affect us differently. younger i was that a slight would cause a rage in me. now i consider the underlying reason for the slight. forgiveness is now mine for a person's human-ness as i would hope for transgressions of my own.
a child will precive a book as an amusing story, a young man/woman will precieve same book as entertainment with maybe a moral, a life wise person will i think finally grasp the deep meaning (and if you will) truth to said book. each takes from the same book his level of understanding which is never a losing proposition, just different. i've read the same book at differing times in life (read aged) and got a whole diff take on it.
goose710
ps- if you're into a head-ache read Mark Twains' "letters to the earth" banned for years insightful oh yeah.

[bobO]

Amen Goose Amen.I read letters from heaven,and if you want to remember Mr.Twain as a fun loving guy,don't read it,took away a little of my childhood.